Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen: RED WARRIORS

[3ball]

Not that you're wrong (about spacing).... (it's a matter of opinion; I might agree with you, might disagree, not sure which I prefer)

although today's 3-point shooting creates spacing, which in turn generates open shots, it takes time to set up the spacing for those open shots, so the pace is slower.

also, setting up and maintaining the spacing requires that players perpetually remain behind the 3-point line, which limits the range and diversity of player movement on the floor - the spacing often looks rigid and marching-band-like with predictable setups and less instinctive player movements.

and of course, the very intent of spacing - to get open shots - ends up commodotizing players skills, since anyone can make open shots, as you can see below: patty mills, to green, to splitter, to diaw.






otoh, while spacing generates the type of open shots that anyone can make, the contested shots more characteristic of no-spacing environments in previous eras required a higher level of individually-unique skill.

also, without needing to set up spacing and restrict player-movement by keeping players behind the 3-point line, teams played much faster, players made quicker decisions, and the game was played more instinctively.

[fpliii]

although today's 3-point shooting creates spacing, which in turn generates open shots, it takes time to set up the spacing for those open shots, so the pace is slower.

also, setting up and maintaining the spacing requires that players perpetually remain behind the 3-point line, which limits the range and diversity of player movement on the floor - the spacing often looks rigid and marching-band-like with predictable setups and fewer instinctive player movements.

and of course, the very intent of spacing - to get open shots - ends up commodotizing players skills, since anyone can make open shots, as you can see below: patty mills, to green, to splitter, to diaw.

otoh, in the absence of spacing to generate the type of open shots that anyone can make, previous eras required a higher level of individually-unique skill to make better-contested shots..

also, without needing to set up spacing and restrict player-movement by keeping players behind the 3-point line, teams played much faster, players made quicker decisions, and the game was played more instinctively.

It does take time for HCO to progress, but I don't have a huge problem with deliberate actions. Less instinctual decisions, but decisions still have to be made.

Doesn't have to look rigid per se though, look at the Spurs' swing motion offense. There are plenty of options, and it comes down to execution. Yes, there's less improvisation, but there you still have to make the right decisions

[3ball]

It does take time for HCO to progress, but I don't have a huge problem with deliberate actions. Less instinctual decisions, but decisions still have to be made.

Doesn't have to look rigid per se though, look at the Spurs' swing motion offense. There are plenty of options, and it comes down to execution. Yes, there's less improvisation, but there you still have to make the right decisions

people have certainly developed an affinity for the slower, more structured style of today's game and the commodotized skills (3-and-D) associated with play-finishing and open shots... and that's fine... the open shots and play-finishing still require decisions, as you point out.

but it's also easy to see the intuitive flipside as well - open shots and play-finishing can be executed by anyone (such as the spurs role players shown previously), and accordingly, require a less individual offensive skill and less individually-unique offensive skill, compared to creating your own shot and/or taking your man...

and when 27% of the shots taken are 3-pointers like in today's game, it reduces the diversity of shots taken pretty severely - for example, today's players can't do a lot of the moves and shots done in previous eras (like the Elgin Baylor move that MJ did in the earlier GIF), because they don't NEED to use such skill in today's game... they just need to pass to the open man for another play-finish like the spurs GIF showed.

[fpliii]

require a lower level of individual offensive skill and less individually-unique offensive skill, compared to creating your own shot and/or taking your man...

I guess so, but IMO it's more so that the skills required to succeed have changed in today's game. Maybe things are more commoditized like you said, but I think it's just that some coaches/front offices have a better idea of what they're trying to do (the smarter ones at least).

The ability to create shots, and convert shots that are ordinarily difficult helps out a ton. Look at what Dirk does in today's league, which tells us MJ or Bird would excel today. But aside from outlier shot creating talents (like Dirk, MJ, Bird, etc.), organizations are trying to avoid isolation ball. Fewer astonishing one-on-one moves yeah, and less individualism. With this comes fewer opportunities/less playing time for guys who were pretty good at that type of game, but not Dirk/MJ/Bird.

[3ball]

I guess so, but IMO it's more so that the skills required to succeed have changed in today's game. Maybe things are more commoditized like you said, but I think it's just that some coaches/front offices have a better idea of what they're trying to do (the smarter ones at least).

The ability to create shots, and convert shots that are ordinarily difficult helps out a ton. Look at what Dirk does in today's league, which tells us MJ or Bird would excel today. But aside from outlier shot creating talents (like Dirk, MJ, Bird, etc.), organizations are trying to avoid isolation ball. Fewer astonishing one-on-one moves yeah, and less individualism. With this comes fewer opportunities/less playing time for guys who were pretty good at that type of game, but not Dirk/MJ/Bird.

any perimeter player in today's game can have a field day with iso's, because the spacing, ban on physicality and clear lane makes it easier... spacing makes it easier for all offensive players.

so it's not just dirk.... it's harden, curry, bledsoe, durant, lowry - you name it - ANY perimeter player can go crazy today if they want or if the coach allows them to iso, and they frequently do.

it's really more the forwards and centers that have been commodotized... as well as the many 3-and-D specialists at the wing positions that we have today.
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[fpliii]

ANY perimeter player in today's game can have a field day with iso's, because the spacing and ban on physicality makes it easier.

it's not just dirk.... it's harden, curry, bledsoe, durant, lowry - you name it - ANY perimeter player can go crazy today if they want or if the coach allows them to iso, and they frequently do.

it's really more the forwards and centers that have been commodotized... as well as the many 3-and-D SG's we have today.

I'm not saying they can't iso, just that they don't anywhere near as often as guys would in the past. Late 90s-early 00s, almost every possession seemed like clear out and let a guy do his thing against the defense. It's important that you said if the coach allows it, because offenses playing team ball, that doesn't happen as often. Though as Bogut said recently, not many teams are strictly playing as a team:

[1987_Lakers]

Are you a moron? Did you just definitively state that Shaq and Kobe > any other duo and call ME clueless? How old are you?

85,87 Magic and Kareem > Shaq and Kobe
92,93,96,97 MJ and Pippen > Shaq and Kobe

and that is a no brainer. Don't put that 2001 duo anywhere near these guys. You're just showing your age.

87 Kareem & Magic?

The same Kareem that put up 17 PPG... you are putting him in the conversation with peak Shaq & prime Kobe? Moron.

2001 Lakers - 15-1 in postseason.
Shaq - 30 PPG | 15 RPG | 2.4 BPG | 55.5 FG%
Kobe - 29 PPG | 7 RPG | 6 APG | 47 FG%

Greatest Duo Ever!!!

Nuff said.

[1987_Lakers]

If you account for defence, like you should, that is simply not true. Pip was not the scorer those guys were, but I'd pick him over Kobe 10/10.

Kobe was an All-NBA Defender in '01 and not to mention he was a much better offensive player than Pippen.

'01 Kobe > Any version of Pippen.

[3ball]

I'm not saying they can't iso, just that they don't anywhere near as often as guys would in the past.

iso-ball hasn't declined in effectiveness or prevelance - as bogut said, a lot of teams still mostly do iso's of some kind.

but ball movement has become more effective due to the rule changes, just as the league intended - consequently, ball movement has SURPASSED iso ball in effectiveness, and is a more preferred option than it used to be when the lack of spacing rendered it less effective.

Some of those guys (including Durant obviously) you mentioned have great isolation scoring ability, but a lot of guys work more off screens now. Some guys have trouble getting open at all without a screen.

this isn't true... all point guards just go get the ball at the top of the key or on the perimeter somewhere and have a nicely spaced floor to work with - ditto for ball-handling wing players... and at that point, the spacing and rule changes make penetration pretty much automatic with or without a screen, just as the league intended... Thibbs' strategies mitigate the spacing and rule changes somewhat, but only enough so it's not a complete free-for-all.

what can the defender do to stop the penetration?... play absolutely PERFECT defense without touching their man?... how often does that happen?... in previous eras, it didn't have to happen, because the defender could just get physical with the would-be penetrator... plus they had backup waiting in the paint... and with no spacing, other defenders were in closer proximity to help out quicker.

I think the specialization comes in 3 forms:

1) 3-and-d types (as you noted; though I don't think they're just SGs, can be any perimeter position 1-3)
2) stretch 4's (and with guys like Antic, there are some stretch 5s)
3) defensive specialist bigs

and all of this demonstrates a lower level of skill - do you really think kevin love and his 26/13 per game (in MIN), or any other stretch 4 in today's game, has skill remotely close to the good PF's and Centers of previous eras?

any PF in previous eras putting up 26/13 would DESTROY love or any PF in today's game... this kind of proves the point about how open shots means lesser skill and ability than what guys had to do in previous eras (score ON defenders much more often).
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[fpliii]

prevelance

ball movement has SURPASSED iso ball in effectiveness

Right, it's not less effective than it used to be, but relatively speaking it is, because of ball movement as you noted.

A lot of teams do run isos of some kind when plays break down, but they're still less common than they were in the late 90s/early 00s. Again though, this happens less often with the better teams (which generally have better coaches).

this isn't true

play absolutely PERFECT defense without touching their man?

There still are a ton of screens set though. It's impossible to play perfect defense which is why there are a lot of fouls. But guys nowadays use their feet instead of their hands to play defense (because hand-checking is called so tightly now).

plus they had backup waiting in the paint... and with no spacing, other defenders were in closer proximity to help out quicker.

There were backups waiting in the paint back then often, but there is help outside the paint now. All about guiding your man into sideline/baseline/help defenders.

kevin love

He doesn't have the same shot creation abilities. Nobody would say that. But he has excellent technical passing and shooting abilities, and very good moving off ball. If he's not taking threes he's obviously going to be less effective.

[3ball]

There were backups waiting in the paint back then often, but there is help outside the paint now.

defensive help that is already inside the paint is more effective paint defense than help that has to run from further distances outside the paint.

of course it goes without saying, previous eras had help from BOTH inside and outside the paint.

All about guiding your man into sideline/baseline/help defenders.

previous eras maintained defensive effectiveness without having to do as much of this, because defenders could be physical, backup was waiting in the paint, and with no spacing, other defenders were in closer proximity to help out quicker from shorter distances.

in today's game, Thibbs' strategies mitigate the loss of the aforementioned defensive advantages (physicality, no spacing, and being able to camp in the lane), but only enough so it's not a complete free-for-all.... but a lot of times, it's still a free-for-all, with open lanes and porous paint defense never seen before.
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[fpliii]

defensive help that is already inside the paint is more effective paint defense than help that has to run from further distances outside the paint.

I guess so, but they don't need to run too much if they just set up *near* the paint. Obviously if a guy gets through though, less resistance at the basket. But denying the paint isn't inherently a bad strategy unless you leave shooters open. Again though, as you said, can't play the same defense at the basket.

a lot of times, it's still a free-for-all though

Yeah, there are defensive breakdowns today, that's true. It's impossible to execute perfectly 100% of the time, since you sacrifice the strength of your help D or leave a shooter open for the skip pass.

[3ball]

I guess so, but they don't need to run too much if they just set up *near* the paint. Obviously if a guy gets through though, less resistance at the basket. But denying the paint isn't inherently a bad strategy unless you leave shooters open. Again though, as you said, can't play the same defense at the basket.

Yeah, there are defensive breakdowns today, that's true. It's impossible to execute perfectly 100% of the time, since you sacrifice the strength of your help D or leave a shooter open for the skip pass.

Indeed, and in previous eras when defenders could stay in the lane, they could remain stationary and just swivel-chair their head and body when there was a skip pass or when the ball was swung, rather than leave the paint like they must do in today's game.. a nice advantage for a defense to have and just another reason why ball movement was less effective back then.

Otoh, defenses today have to pick their poison as you point out - they simply can't deal with the spacing strategy, rule changes that cleared the lane, AND the physicality ban all at once - which is why when these rules came out in the early 2000's, new defensive strategies were needed to maintain the same defensive effectiveness as before.

Thibbs was the guy that came up with the new defensive methodologies designed to carry the heavier defensive burden... but if Thibbs hadn't come up with something to mitigate defensive 3 seconds and guard the larger surface area caused by 3-pointers, someone else would have.

He deserves credit, but his strategies would've been developed at some point anyway, because the rule changes & spacing necessitated it... it's natural for humans to react to changing circumstances... GM Daryl Morey says just that:

[fpliii]

I think most innovation is a result of rule changes, though there are also innovations in response to those innovations (to balance off/def).