90's Bulls and 80's Lakers: Best Offenses Ever

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan had the hand injury in '98, so his entire FG% suffered. From 1989-90 to 1992-93 Jordan shot .343 with 2.1 attempts. So like a lot of other players who began their career in the 80s, he developed his 3-point shot late. Isolating '98 as an example of his 3-point shooting is disingenuous.

Pippen, who shot .345 during the 94-95 season, also shot .344 during the 2000-2001 season.

Kukoc shot .446 in 2000-01.

Kerr shot .507 in 1989-90 and .516 in 1999-2000.

You are just proving my point. Jordan was a 30% 3 point shooter from 85-93. Pippen was 25%, he was 32% from '98 through his retirement. They were never special 3 point shooters, same goes for Kukoc, he was a 33% 3PT shooter from 98 and on. Kerr was the only knock down shooter.

[1987_Lakers]

Lol. So what about 91, 92, and 93? The Bulls played with the normal three point line.

I believe those Bulls teams have to be in the convo for greatest offenses ever, I just have them below the mid-late 80's Celtics & Lakers.

[97 bulls]

i dont follow

that isn't a "combination" - that's the best Laker team, the '85 squad. as for the reason i listed the rosters? you disputed the fact kareem and healthy worthy and scott didn't mean much - the '85 team is basically the '91 version at full strength.

but not only were you WRONG about kareem stats, you dodged my underlining point.

please present a rebuttal - thanks in advance

Never said they didnt mean much. If you read my first post in response to Lazz, I said it woukd be close. But I also said that that would be too big of a swing. Cuz not only do the Lakers now have to win three more games, the Bulls must lose four, thats a seven game swing. I then stated that it wasnt as if they were playing with only 3 starters as if that series was played 5-3, they had Teagle, and Divac who granted werent on the level of Jabaar and Cooper, but were by no means bad, then they added Sam Perkins. I think the Bulls win in seven.

Saying that. Some feel the 87 squad was the Lakers best team because Worthy and Scott were young in 85 (both only 23), and Mcadoo and Wilkes were old. The 87 team had an older Jabaar, but prime Magic, Worthy, Scott, Green, and added Mychal Thompson.

I just dont like the idea of a 23 year old Byron Scott and a 23 year old James worthy trying to check Jordan and Pippen. Or an old Mcadoo trying to battke Rodman for rebounds. If I were a Laker fan. And as Lazaruss said, Cooper and checking Jordan the whole game. Unless you don't play Scott at all.

[97 bulls]

I believe those Bulls teams have to be in the convo for greatest offenses ever, I just have them below the mid-late 80's Celtics & Lakers.

Right. My point is you saying that the reason or a big reason for the Bulls dominace was due to the three point line being moved in. Thus making them better shooters. But wouldn't that hold true for everyone during that time? I mean, were the Bulls the only team that was allowed to shoot threes from the closer line whike every other team still had to shoot from the original one? And what about 91, 92, and 93 the line was in its regular spot then. And they were still winning.

[97 bulls]

You are just proving my point. Jordan was a 30% 3 point shooter from 85-93. Pippen was 25%, he was 32% from '98 through his retirement. They were never special 3 point shooters, same goes for Kukoc, he was a 33% 3PT shooter from 98 and on. Kerr was the only knock down shooter.

But that was more a function of the way the league was at the time. A player shooting in the low 30s was considered a solid three point shooter then. Just like in the 60s, a player sshooting a FG% in the low because 40% was considered solid. Gotta compare the times.

[1987_Lakers]

Right. My point is you saying that the reason or a big reason for the Bulls dominace was due to the three point line being moved in. Thus making them better shooters. But wouldn't that hold true for everyone during that time? I mean, were the Bulls the only team that was allowed to shoot threes from the closer line whike every other team still had to shoot from the original one? And what about 91, 92, and 93 the line was in its regular spot then. And they were still winning.

My point was that with the short 3 point line it inflates the teams offensive stats like Offensive Rating. The '92 Bulls for me was the best team in terms of offense.

[1987_Lakers]

But that was more a function of the way the league was at the time. A player shooting in the low 30s was considered a solid three point shooter then. Just like in the 60s, a player sshooting a FG% in the low because 40% was considered solid. Gotta compare the times.

Please, Danny Ainge in 1988 was shooting 41.5% from 3 point land on 1.8 makes a game, Larry Bird was 41.4% on 1.3 makes a game.

The league average in 3P% in 1993 was 33.6%

20 years later in 2013 it was 35.9%

3 point shooting has improved overall, but not a dramatic improvement as you might think.

[Micku]

Jordan had the hand injury in '98, so his entire FG% suffered. From 1989-90 to 1992-93 Jordan shot .343 with 2.1 attempts. So like a lot of other players who began their career in the 80s, he developed his 3-point shot late. Isolating '98 as an example of his 3-point shooting is disingenuous.

Pippen, who shot .345 during the 94-95 season, also shot .344 during the 2000-2001 season.

Kukoc shot .446 in 2000-01.

Kerr shot .507 in 1989-90 and .516 in 1999-2000.

Didn't he cut his finger in 1999 or are you talking about something else? In 99 he cut his finger right before he announced his retirement I believed.

[SHAQisGOAT]

This in spite of the Bulls smashing them in 91? You really think that an older Jabaar and Cooper make that big of a difference?

- That "older" Jabbar who was still capable of averaging 20 PPG on great efficiency, still had one of the GOAT Finals series (1985) for example, drew big attention down-low and was a very good passer out of the post, tall player down the middle still playing some D with a few blocks...
They had Divac and Perkins yea, but I certainly wouldn't take that above 80's Kareem plus Mychal Thompson (complete shell in 1991) and also Rambis (or even McAdoo).

- Cooper was their best defensive player for some time at some point, simply one of the best defensive guards/players ever, gave hell to 1's, 2's or 3's countless times, also capable of "anchoring" a defense from the backcourt (few guards across history can make such claims, few of them have done it better)...
Also, he was a big spark of the bench with his energetic play and athleticism, he developed a great spot-up 3pt shot, and very IMPORTANT here, a part that's really underrated about his game is that he was pretty good for backing up Magic at PG duties, as he was a good passer and could really "take care" of the ball, and it was clear LA really needed that backup for Magic when Mike was gone, no one even close to that level in 1991.

- Worthy and Scott, two huge pieces for them, two great players, were injured for the 1991 Finals...

Yes, all of that makes a BIG difference... You wouldn't know much about that though

And I can't see the best Jordan's Bulls team beating the best showtime Lakers team in a 7games series, more often than the other way around.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Please, Danny Ainge in 1988 was shooting 41.5% from 3 point land on 1.8 makes a game, Larry Bird was 41.4% on 1.3 makes a game.

The league average in 3P% in 1993 was 33.6%

20 years later in 2013 it was 35.9%

3 point shooting has improved overall, but not a dramatic improvement as you might think.

Agreed.

Can look at Dale Ellis (probably the most underrated shooter ever) shooting 48% on 4 attempts; Michael Coop (one who didn't make no difference ) reaching 48.6% on 4 attempts for the 1987 post-season for example; Mike Price with 41% on 5 attempts; Byron Scott (injured in 1991) once shot 42% on 3 attempts; Craig Hodges with 49% and 1.3 makes; Jon Sundvold with 52% on 1.4 attempts; Steve Kerr 2 attempts on 51%; Brian Taylor shot 38% on 3 attempts the 1st year the line was introduced to the NBA; Trent Tucker with 40% on 1.5 makes; Reggie Miller was already reaching 40% in 1988-89.....

[97 bulls]

- That "older" Jabbar who was still capable of averaging 20 PPG on great efficiency, still had one of the GOAT Finals series (1985) for example, drew big attention down-low and was a very good passer out of the post, tall player down the middle still playing some D with a few blocks...
They had Divac and Perkins yea, but I certainly wouldn't take that above 80's Kareem plus Mychal Thompson (complete shell in 1991) and also Rambis (or even McAdoo).

Again, im not saying or implying that Divac or Perkins were better than 80s Kareem. What I am saying is that they were both good players and that by 87, Jabaar while being better than them, wasnt that much better to think that he would swing that series. Early to mid 80s Jabaar? Yes thats a big improvement. But then you loose a seasoned Worthy and Scott.

- Cooper was their best defensive player for some time at some point, simply one of the best defensive guards/players ever, gave hell to 1's, 2's or 3's countless times, also capable of "anchoring" a defense from the backcourt (few guards across history can make such claims, few of them have done it better)...
Also, he was a big spark of the bench with his energetic play and athleticism, he developed a great spot-up 3pt shot, and very IMPORTANT here, a part that's really underrated about his game is that he was pretty good for backing up Magic at PG duties, as he was a good passer and could really "take care" of the ball, and it was clear LA really needed that backup for Magic when Mike was gone, no one even close to that level in 1991.

And again, Coop was a great man defender. I don't see his defense being able to hinder Jordans ability to score. I mean he didn't. Jordan avg almost 32 ppg while Coope was with the Lakers. Higher if you taje away his rookie season.

- Worthy and Scott, two huge pieces for them, two great players, were injured for the 1991 Finals...

No they weren't. Scott hurt his shoulder late in game four, and Worthy reagravated his ankle sprain. Again also in game four. And mind you when Worthy and Scott went down, the Bulls were up and had the game well in hand. And had a 3-1 series lead. And let's not forget that Jordan was playing with an injured big tie that series. I seem to remember him having to put take his shoe off when he wasnt in or they took out the in sole to give the swollen toe more room and relieve the pressure.

Yes, all of that makes a BIG difference... You wouldn't know much about that though

Im not the unreasonable one here my friend. You are.

And I can't see the best Jordan's Bulls team beating the best showtime Lakers team in a 7games series, more often than the other way around.

I can.

Funny thing is. I've seen you routinely compare Bird to Jordan based on the Celtics beating the Bulls in 86 and 87. But wont acknowledge that Jordan didnt have a team good enough to compete with the Celtics. He didnt have even rookie Pippen or Grant. And yet you still feel if he.was good enough, he wouldve or should've been able to overcome that situation. But Magic and.Kareem dont huh?

What's the difference between the Celtics/Bulls.series in 86, where one game went to overtime, and another the Bulls (who were heavy underdogs) had a lead at halftime. And the.Bulls/Lakers series where the Lakers(a much better team than the Bulls in 86) got basically blown out in two games, won one game on a last second shot, lost one game in overtime, etc? The hypocrisy is.just unbelievable.

[Poetry]

Didn't he cut his finger in 1999 or are you talking about something else? In 99 he cut his finger right before he announced his retirement I believed.

He had a cracked bone in his knuckle and torn ligaments in his hand during the '98 season.

The cigar cutter injury in 1999 left him unable to bend that finger properly, but we didn't see the results of that injury until he joined the Wizards.

[EllEffEll]

If we are just talking about offense, the 81-82 Denver Nuggets should get a mention here. Their problem was that their defense was as bad as their offense was good. But they could score. . . . . 126 average ppg, and it wasn't just one guy.

Magic in his prime in 1991?

Anyone that says that is true wasn't really watching closely, if at all.

I would have loved to see a 90's Bulls team play a prime Showtime Laker team. 1987 would have been a good year for that. I have no idea who would have won, but it would have been fun to see the 1985 Lakers play that series too. I loved the early 80's Showtime Lakers, but it took Rambis getting punked by McHale in the 1984 finals for the Lakers to get truly tough enough to play a really physical series against those rough and tumble Eastern Conference teams of the late 80's and early 90's.

[fpliii]

uh ok, so bird's celtics, magic's lakers, and jordan's bulls are the best offenses of all time...

sounds about right.

I might agree with that. I was just noting that Bird is often left out of these types of discussions, but the East was super tough in the 80s. Enough that his teams and Magic's teams are comparable offensively when weighting performances against each conference equally.