90's Bulls and 80's Lakers: Best Offenses Ever

[mehyaM24]

A mid-80's Kareem could routinely hang 40 on Hakeem. Cooper would have given MJ fits. Magic was in his prime. And a mid-80's Worthy was FAR more dominant than the shell of the Worthy that played in the '91 Finals.

So YES, a HUGE difference.

good post

i have continuously said in past threads, you got to account for a productive, and healthy kareem - who may have not been in his "PRIME", but was still incredibly effective (in some circles, the BEST laker in the mid 80s). and i'm not sure why there are users posting stats, acting as if they can narrate coopers defense or something. the point is, he was the lakers' best defender - a simple subtraction by subtraction for that ballclub. of course, worthy and scott's injuries were the main difference in those finals. had they been healthy, obviously that series turns out different.

every game with the exception of game 2 was CLOSE. are we REALLY going out on a limb, saying the lakers handle the bulls with kareem, scott and worthy at their 'relative' best?

all things equal, lakers beat chicago in 5 IMO

[1987_Lakers]

That short 3 point line helped the Bulls tremendously in '96 which would explain their insane ORTG. We all know Jordan & Pippen weren't much of a factor from 3 point land from the normal distance.

96 (short 3 point line)
Jordan: 43%
Pippen: 37%
Kukoc: 40%
Kerr: 52%

98 (Normal 3 point line)
Jordan: 24%
Pippen: 32%
Kukoc: 36%
Kerr: 44%

Greatest offense ever IMO has to go to either '85 or '87 Lakers, choose one.

[mehyaM24]

That short 3 point line helped the Bulls tremendously in '96 which would explain their insane ORTG. We all know Jordan & Pippen weren't much of a factor from 3 point land from the normal distance.

96 (short 3 point line)
Jordan: 43%
Pippen: 37%
Kukoc: 40%
Kerr: 52%

98 (Normal 3 point line)
Jordan: 24%
Pippen: 32%
Kukoc: 36%
Kerr: 44%

Greatest offense ever IMO has to go to either '85 or '87 Lakers, chose one.

the 1986 celtics deserve an honorable mention, if passing STILL has a place in "offense".

btw, good point about the shortened 3PT line. that seems to get lost in these type of discussions.

[1987_Lakers]

the 1986 celtics deserve an honorable mention, if passing STILL has a place in "offense".

btw, good point about the shortened 3PT line. that seems to get lost in these type of discussions.

No doubt. In terms of offense I have them just behind those Lakers teams and ahead of Jordan's Bulls. Boston had the best overall ball-movement/passing of those teams.

[Young X]

Never used to think so, but the '92 Bulls might be the best team. They had the 2nd best offense ever recorded, 4th ranked defense (in that season), Jordan/Pippen/Grant in their athletic primes, Jackson as their head coach, great passing and efficient role players. They were one MJ ejection/suspension away from winning 70 games. I'd put my money on them against any team.

[97 bulls]

good post

i have continuously said in past threads, you got to account for a productive, and healthy kareem - who may have not been in his "PRIME", but was still incredibly effective (in some circles, the BEST laker in the mid 80s)

.
He's been accounted for. Would he have helped? Sure. But to the point of that big of a swing? No.

and i'm not sure why there are users posting stats, acting as if they can narrate coopers defense or something. the point is, he was the lakers' best defender - a simple subtraction by subtraction for that ballclub.

What????? I posted stats of Cooper vs Jordan. Besides. Coopers replacement was Terry Teagle. Who was a much better scorer than Cooper ever was. So the loss isnt as bad as you guys try to make it seem. You guys act as if the Bulls were playing 5 on three.

of course, worthy and scott's injuries were the main difference in those finals. had they been healthy, obviously that series turns out different.

The Bulls were up 3-1 when they went down. What are you talking about?

every game with the exception of game 2 was CLOSE. are we REALLY going out on a limb, saying the lakers handle the bulls with kareem, scott and worthy at their 'relative' best?

2 and 4 weren't close. The Bulls admittedly stated they were a little overwhelmed in game 1 due to the magnitude of the game and who they were playing, and game 5 was the game that Scott and Worthy missed. And by then, the Bulls knew they had that series won.

all things equal, lakers beat chicago in 5 IMO

Again, how? And even more, are they supposed to beat the Bulls best sqaud?

[97 bulls]

That short 3 point line helped the Bulls tremendously in '96 which would explain their insane ORTG. We all know Jordan & Pippen weren't much of a factor from 3 point land from the normal distance.

96 (short 3 point line)
Jordan: 43%
Pippen: 37%
Kukoc: 40%
Kerr: 52%

98 (Normal 3 point line)
Jordan: 24%
Pippen: 32%
Kukoc: 36%
Kerr: 44%

Greatest offense ever IMO has to go to either '85 or '87 Lakers, choose one.

Lol. So what about 91, 92, and 93? The Bulls played with the normal three point line.

[Poetry]

That short 3 point line helped the Bulls tremendously in '96 which would explain their insane ORTG. We all know Jordan & Pippen weren't much of a factor from 3 point land from the normal distance.

96 (short 3 point line)
Jordan: 43%
Pippen: 37%
Kukoc: 40%
Kerr: 52%

98 (Normal 3 point line)
Jordan: 24%
Pippen: 32%
Kukoc: 36%
Kerr: 44%

Greatest offense ever IMO has to go to either '85 or '87 Lakers, choose one.

Jordan had the hand injury in '98, so his entire FG% suffered. From 1989-90 to 1992-93 Jordan shot .343 with 2.1 attempts. So like a lot of other players who began their career in the 80s, he developed his 3-point shot late. Isolating '98 as an example of his 3-point shooting is disingenuous.

Pippen, who shot .345 during the 94-95 season, also shot .344 during the 2000-2001 season.

Kukoc shot .446 in 2000-01.

Kerr shot .507 in 1989-90 and .516 in 1999-2000.

[3ball]

Boston splits with prime Bird:

uh ok, so bird's celtics, magic's lakers, and jordan's bulls are the best offenses of all time...

sounds about right.

[LAZERUSS]

Thats great. But overall, he was avg 17 ppg. And the Bulls didnt have a Hakeem type center.


Jordan avg 31 ppg vs the Lakers with Michael Cooper. And second threepeat Jordan opperated in the post more. And weighed roughly 220 to Coopers 175lbs. Coop would be giving up 50 lbs to Jordan.


Magic was in his prime in 91. He was the reigning MVP, and finished second behind Jordan in 91.



Worthy turned in his best scoring season in 91. He was 29, and yet you say he was a "shell"????. And granted he sprained his ankle a few weeks prior, but come on. Jordan played with a jammed toe and had a hard time planting his foot.

And lets not forget that that 91 Bulls team was hardly their best version as well. It would be close, but id give it to the Bulls.

Not sure where you are getting a mid-80's Kareem at 17 ppg. In the mid-80's he was averaging about 23 ppg. Furthemore, in the '85 Finals he averaged a 26-9-5 .604 FG% series (and if you remove game 1, in which he was sleep-walking, he was at over 30 ppg in the last five games.) Hell, a 38 year old KAJ averaged 23 ppg against the league in the regular season (and 33 ppg on a .620 FG% against Hakeem), then a 26-6-4 .557 FG% in 14 playoff games.

As for MJ averaging 31 ppg against the LAKERS, sure. But he wasn't defended by COOPER for every minute of those games, either. Bird, who was bigger and stronger than MJ, claimed that Cooper was the toughest defensive player he ever faced.

Magic was NOT in his prime in '91. He was already starting to decline. A mid-80's Magic, while not winning MVPs, was certainly as good as any player in the game at the time. Furthermore, he was putting up 18-6-13 .565 FG% seasons in the mid-80's. An '87 Magic was at a PEAK Magic, though, and it clearly showed in the Finals, when he destroyed Boston with a 26-8-13 .541 FG% Finals.

Worthy was a FAR greater player in the mid-80's than the shell that was in the '91 Finals. In the mid-80's he was putting up 20-5-3 .579 FG% seasons...unlike the crippled Worthy in the '91 playoffs who was putting up a 21-4-4 .465 average in 18 games. BTW, take a look at his his next three seasons after the '91 Finals...20 ppg on a .447 FG%, 15 ppg on a .447 FG%, and in his final season...10 ppg on a .406 FG%. And in the 80's Worthy almost always raised his game in the post-season. Example: his '84 Finals, when he averaged 22 ppg on a .638 FG%


Again, a prime Cooper, a prime Magic, a mid-80's Kareem, and a mid-80's Worthy were FAR better than the '91 Lakers that the Bulls blew out in the Finals.

[mehyaM24]

Not sure where you are getting a mid-80's Kareem at 17 ppg. In the mid-80's he was averaging about 23 ppg. Furthemore, in the '85 Finals he averaged a 26-9-5 .604 FG% series (and if you remove game 1, in which he was sleep-walking, he was at over 30 ppg in the last five games.) Hell, a 38 year old KAJ averaged 23 ppg against the league in the regular season (and 33 ppg on a .620 FG% against Hakeem), then a 26-6-4 .557 FG% in 14 playoff games.

As for MJ averaging 31 ppg against the LAKERS, sure. But he wasn't defended by COOPER for every minute of those games, either. Bird, who was bigger and stronger than MJ, claimed that Cooper was the toughest defensive player he ever faced.

Magic was NOT in his prime in '91. He was already starting to decline. A mid-80's Magic, while not winning MVPs, was certainly as good as any player in the game at the time. Furthermore, he was putting up 18-6-13 .565 FG% seasons in the mid-80's. An '87 Magic was at a PEAK Magic, though, and it clearly showed in the Finals, when he destroyed Boston with a 26-8-13 .541 FG% Finals.

Worthy was a FAR greater player in the mid-80's than the shell that was in the '91 Finals. In the mid-80's he was putting up 20-5-3 .579 FG% seasons...unlike the crippled Worthy in the '91 playoffs who was putting up a 21-4-4 .465 average in 18 games. BTW, take a look at his his next three seasons after the '91 Finals...20 ppg on a .447 FG%, 15 ppg on a .447 FG%, and in his final season...10 ppg on a .406 FG%. And in the 80's Worthy almost always raised his game in the post-season. Example: his '84 Finals, when he averaged 22 ppg on a .638 FG%


Again, a prime Cooper, a prime Magic, a mid-80's Kareem, and a mid-80's Worthy were FAR better than the '91 Lakers that the Bulls blew out in the Finals.

another brilliant post. will rep in the future (srs)

just so ISH can see the lineups

'80s Lakers at their best
magic/coop
scott/mcgee
worthy/spriggs
ac green/rambis/kupchak
kareem/mcadoo

'91 Bulls
paxon/armgstrong
jordan/hodges
pippen/levingston
grant/stacey king
cartwright/perdue

now, chicago has the advantage from 2-4, but the lakers have a HUGE advantage at the 5 and center position, along with a far better bench. not only that, but the lakers are much more flexible with the lineups they could use TOO.

btw LAZZ....which laker teams EXACTLY would you take over the bulls?

[97 bulls]

another brilliant post. will rep in the future (srs)

just so ISH can see the lineups

'80s Lakers at their best
magic/coop
scott/mcgee
worthy/spriggs
ac green/rambis/kupchak
kareem/mcadoo

'91 Bulls
paxon/armgstrong
jordan/hodges
pippen/levingston
grant/stacey king
cartwright/perdue

now, chicago has the advantage from 2-4, but the lakers have a HUGE advantage at the 5 and center position, along with a far better bench. not only that, but the lakers are much more flexible with the lineups they could use TOO.

btw LAZZ....which laker teams EXACTLY would you take over the bulls?

Lol. Ok. I see what you're doing. You're comparing the 91 Bulls to a combination of the 80s Lakers championship teams. Wow!!!!!!

And what Lazaruss is about to do is compare the 91 Bulls to what I assume is the 85 Lakers, but with a neat lil spin. Everyone on that team is in their respective prime. Again Wow!!!!!

[-23-]

Not sure where you are getting a mid-80's Kareem at 17 ppg. In the mid-80's he was averaging about 23 ppg. Furthemore, in the '85 Finals he averaged a 26-9-5 .604 FG% series (and if you remove game 1, in which he was sleep-walking, he was at over 30 ppg in the last five games.) Hell, a 38 year old KAJ averaged 23 ppg against the league in the regular season (and 33 ppg on a .620 FG% against Hakeem), then a 26-6-4 .557 FG% in 14 playoff games.

As for MJ averaging 31 ppg against the LAKERS, sure. But he wasn't defended by COOPER for every minute of those games, either. Bird, who was bigger and stronger than MJ, claimed that Cooper was the toughest defensive player he ever faced.

Magic was NOT in his prime in '91. He was already starting to decline. A mid-80's Magic, while not winning MVPs, was certainly as good as any player in the game at the time. Furthermore, he was putting up 18-6-13 .565 FG% seasons in the mid-80's. An '87 Magic was at a PEAK Magic, though, and it clearly showed in the Finals, when he destroyed Boston with a 26-8-13 .541 FG% Finals.

Worthy was a FAR greater player in the mid-80's than the shell that was in the '91 Finals. In the mid-80's he was putting up 20-5-3 .579 FG% seasons...unlike the crippled Worthy in the '91 playoffs who was putting up a 21-4-4 .465 average in 18 games. BTW, take a look at his his next three seasons after the '91 Finals...20 ppg on a .447 FG%, 15 ppg on a .447 FG%, and in his final season...10 ppg on a .406 FG%. And in the 80's Worthy almost always raised his game in the post-season. Example: his '84 Finals, when he averaged 22 ppg on a .638 FG%


Again, a prime Cooper, a prime Magic, a mid-80's Kareem, and a mid-80's Worthy were FAR better than the '91 Lakers that the Bulls blew out in the Finals.

Why are you putting together a frankenstein team made of players in different years when comparing to the 91 bulls? LOL. Ok how about we take a 92-93 Jordan, 94 Pippen, Rodman, Prime Harper (no longer a shell) on a team?

[97 bulls]

Not sure where you are getting a mid-80's Kareem at 17 ppg. In the mid-80's he was averaging about 23 ppg. Furthemore, in the '85 Finals he averaged a 26-9-5 .604 FG% series (and if you remove game 1, in which he was sleep-walking, he was at over 30 ppg in the last five games.) Hell, a 38 year old KAJ averaged 23 ppg against the league in the regular season (and 33 ppg on a .620 FG% against Hakeem), then a 26-6-4 .557 FG% in 14 playoff games.

Ok got it. You're talking about Jabaar PRE 87.

As for MJ averaging 31 ppg against the LAKERS, sure. But he wasn't defended by COOPER for every minute of those games, either. Bird, who was bigger and stronger than MJ, claimed that Cooper was the toughest defensive player he ever faced.

Thats Coopers opinion. I can't argue that. Saying that.... sure Bird was bigger, but he was nowhere near as quick and as athletic as Jordan.

Magic was NOT in his prime in '91. He was already starting to decline. A mid-80's Magic, while not winning MVPs, was certainly as good as any player in the game at the time. Furthermore, he was putting up 18-6-13 .565 FG% seasons in the mid-80's. An '87 Magic was at a PEAK Magic, though, and it clearly showed in the Finals, when he destroyed Boston with a 26-8-13 .541 FG% Finals.

Again, what makes you say that Magic wasn't in his prime in 91????? 19/7/13? All NBA 1st team? MVP runner up? Nit to mention winning the MVP the year prior? And not only that, but you cant honestly tell me that the road the 91 Lakers took to get to the Finals was not the hardest of Magics career. The 52 win Rockets, the 44 win Warriors, the 63 Trailbalzers, then the 61 win Bulls. And three of those teams were excellent defensively. And even then, Magic avg. 22/8/12. You cant possibly be this unrealistic. And even if you feel he wasn't in his absolute super-cali-fragilistic-espy-allidosious prime, was it enough to make the distinction your attempting to make? I mean really?

Worthy was a FAR greater player in the mid-80's than the shell that was in the '91 Finals. In the mid-80's he was putting up 20-5-3 .579 FG% seasons...unlike the crippled Worthy in the '91 playoffs who was putting up a 21-4-4 .465 average in 18 games. BTW, take a look at his his next three seasons after the '91 Finals...20 ppg on a .447 FG%, 15 ppg on a .447 FG%, and in his final season...10 ppg on a .406 FG%. And in the 80's Worthy almost always raised his game in the post-season. Example: his '84 Finals, when he averaged 22 ppg on a .638 FG%

So which Worthy are we picking here? The 85 Worthy who was only 23 the 87 Worthy? 86? Or again, a combination of them. Worthy has always been a great player, but I think you're doing him a disservice to say he peaked at 25. Especially when the stats dont show it. Perhaps you should just give credit to Pippen and the Bulls for their defensive effort against him.

Again, a prime Cooper, a prime Magic, a mid-80's Kareem, and a mid-80's Worthy were FAR better than the '91 Lakers that the Bulls blew out in the Finals.

Im gonna have to ask.... pick, one team. Be it 82, 85, 87 etc. I don't think a fair comaprison would be to compare one vs a bunch. And mind you, you said that the 80s Lakers would beat any version. So in my opinion, I feel the 97 Bulls was their best team and best team ever. Certainly not the 91 team that really didnt have the swagger that they did later.

[mehyaM24]

Lol. Ok. I see what you're doing. You're comparing the 91 Bulls to a combination of the 80s Lakers championship teams. Wow!!!!!!

And what Lazaruss is about to do is compare the 91 Bulls to what I assume is the 85 Lakers, but with a neat lil spin. Everyone on that team is in their respective prime. Again Wow!!!!!

i dont follow

that isn't a "combination" - that's the best Laker team, the '85 squad. as for the reason i listed the rosters? you disputed the fact kareem and healthy worthy and scott didn't mean much - the '85 team is basically the '91 version at full strength.

but not only were you WRONG about kareem stats, you dodged my underlining point.

please present a rebuttal - thanks in advance