Quote I read on Reddit regarding MJ vs Kobe

[navy]

It fed into the Euro/international style because from then on, after recognizing defensive schemes by these new breed of defensive coaches, NBA play would be laden with more passing, more cutting, and less iso/post up play like during early 2000s and during the 90s. This style would prove to be the more efficient way of scoring to counter defensive changes. And Euros have been playing like this for years because of full blown zones in international play.

After all, this was the intention of the new rules. Stu Jackson said this.

Exactly. The big difference is that now instead of defenses reacting to MJ, MJ would have to react to defenses as they would no longer have to give even the appearance of caring about his teammates.

MJ would still be the GOAT, but no need to be insecure. Or imply that Thibs is lying or just doesnt know what he's talking about

[Blue&Orange]

Oh shit you are making it too easy!

after recognizing defensive schemes by these new breed of defensive coaches,

What new breed of defensive coaches? Are you one of those idiots that thinks defenses improved in 20 years but offenses freeze in time? Do you know Mike D'Antoni? Tell me a defensive coach that made more money than him.

NBA play would be laden with more passing, more cutting, and less iso/post up play like during early 2000s and during the 90s. This style would prove to be the more efficient way of scoring to counter defensive changes. And Euros have been playing like this for years because of full blown zones in international play.

After all, this was the intention of the new rules. Stu Jackson said this.

Apparently you grown scared of out of context quotes.

The Board voted to eliminate our old illegal defense guidelines, to implement a new defensive three-second call, reduce the time allowable to get the ball across half-court from 10 seconds to eight seconds, and allow less contact. All changes were passed with the idea of trying to encourage more free flowing five-man offenses, open up the lanes for cutting and passing and speed up the game by encouraging teams to get into their offenses quicker.

Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

it has become more difficult for defenders to defend penetration, cover the entire floor on defensive rotations and recover to shooters. This has provided more time for shooters to ready themselves for quality shots. With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim. Additionally, teams now realize the 3-point shot is a great competitive equalizer, so they are taking more; they have improved their skill level on threes and are making them at a higher rate.

However, there are distinct differences in the international game vs. the NBA game. The international game utilizes a pure zone defense (as opposed to the defensive three-second rule), which allows frontcourt players to stand in the middle of the lane and discourage cutting, passing and dribble penetration.

Yeah it really sounds like Jordan would have it hard in todays game... with those open lanes.


But yeah don't let facts, stats and video footage get in the way of a out of context quote of thibs.

[ralph_i_el]

This whole argument is so stupid.

1. We can never prove who is right because we're dealing with players who don't play anymore

2. The offense improvements (spacing) vs. Defensive improvements (zone, loading the strong side, downing PnR's, 2.9ing) is a chicken or egg argument. Which led to the other?

3. Obviously MJ would still be a dominant player in today's . I guarantee you that he wouldn't be playing the same style of ball he used to, and i guarantee you he'd see more double teams. No one is saying MJ didn't face double teams. No one is saying he didn't face double teams that were ILLEGAL under the rules of the time. I'm just saying he'd be seeing them sooner, and more often because they would be fully legal today.


4. Defensive 3-seconds means nothing. You have to come withing arms reach of an offensive player, or step 1 foot out of the paint and your 3 seconds resets. It's call maybe once every 3 games. Near-full zones are allowed in the NBA at this point. The other day against the Magic, Wizards players were straight screaming at the refs to call 3 seconds, because the magic were just loading the paint every possession. The refs called in ONE TIME, and it didn't change anything.


5. Illegal D rules were really stupid. It allowed players who couldn't shoot to stay on the floor because they could stand far away from the basket and their man still had to defend them. Donnie Nelson would sometimes take a 7 footer and just have him stand 30 feet away from the hoop so that other teams couldn't use their center to defend the paint. Today, some guys who can't shoot just can't play because they mess up spacing so bad, and other guys who are useless besides their shooting get tons of playing time because you can just plant them on the outside and the D has to worry about them.

Illegal D also let you Iso a guy on one side of the floor with the rest of your team on the other side, and the D just had to deal with it.

6. When you watch MJ vids and see a packed paint, most of the time it's because his own teammates were in there getting ready to go for an offensive rebound. Teams try to hit the offensive glass MUCH LESS today. Statistically it's better (for most players) to get back and stop transition buckets than it is to go for offensive putbacks.

[GimmeThat]

and that fella, what's his name, alcindor? Kareem abdul Jabbar?

he can really ball.

[Dr.J4ever]

Oh shit you are making it too easy!


What new breed of defensive coaches? Are you one of those idiots that thinks defenses improved in 20 years but offenses freeze in time? Do you know Mike D'Antoni? Tell me a defensive coach that made more money than him.



Apparently you grown scared of out of context quotes.



Yeah it really sounds like Jordan would have it hard in todays game... with those open lanes.


But yeah don't let facts, stats and video footage get in the way of a out of context quote of thibs.

When exactly did I say offenses haven't caught up to defenses? My whole argument is exactly that offenses today have adjusted to the new rules, and are playing a beautiful and entertaining style. However, it was exactly the intention of the rules to force those changes.

Here's a little bit more of what Stu Jackson said in an interview:

Eliminating illegal defense guidelines:

"Jackson: The illegal defense guidelines needed to be eliminated because they have become problematic. They are problematic for our fans, who don't understand the rule. They are problematic for the officials, who admittedly have had difficulty administering the rule. And finally, our teams have used the guidelines in a way that produces isolation basketball. Teams identify areas on the floor that they can use to their advantage in a given offensive matchup and this produces a real sameness of play amongst a lot of our teams. With isolation basketball, a lot of our teams began standing around. There is little player movement, there is little ball movement, and there is a decreasing amount of fastbreak opportunities. These developments began with the misuse of the illegal defense guidelines and therefore they needed to be eliminated. By eliminating them, our desired result is to get a game that once again is based on passing, cutting, player movement, and ball movement. A game that hopefully produces fastbreak opportunities because that is the way our game should be played.

A defensive three-second violation that would prohibit a player on defense from being in the lane for more than three seconds, except when the player is defending an opponent in the lane area:

Jackson: When we eliminated the illegal defense guidelines, the number one concern was that teams would take a bigger player, like a Shaquille O'Neal, Theo Ratliff, Shawn Bradley, or Dikembe Mutombo, and simply put him in the middle of the lane to camp out and prohibit drives to the basket and encourage low-percentage shots. In an effort to help alleviate that concern, the defensive three-seconds violation was recommended. Prohibiting a player from being in the lane for longer than three seconds will hopefully prevent a player from simply camping in the lane for the entire possession. "

So there was "concern" that the new rules would be used by teams to take a big player and just camp him out in the lane. If the old rules permitted this like 3ball and others have been claiming, then why would the new rules make this a concern? Huh?

Also, Stu admits iso ball was the main culprit they wanted to combat with the rules changes.

[AlphaWolf24]

Jordan was an amazing athlete.....and early in his career he could use his skill plus his godly physical attributes to beat his man and finish at the rim ( sometimes over 3 guys)

but anyone who watches basketball for the past 30 years knows.....the game is played much different ( defensively) then it was in the early 80's.

Would MJ still be able to get to the rim? of course.....would it be like the 80's with more Isolation/less 3 point threats/less focus on perimeter - stretch defense???......resounding NO.

MJ would still be a dominant scorer....but he would be taking way more threes in this era....and his FG% would slip from 49% - 50% to 45% - 47%

this argument is exactly like the Wilt Chamberlain fans.....would Wilt average 50PPG in the 80's????

did the game change from 1950's - 60's to the 80's - 90's???.......of course it did.

would Wilt still be a physical wonder capable of putting up huge numbers???...of course....but not at the same pace he did.







- MJ stans always say Wilt/Russell played in a inferior era compared to MJ ( to prop up MJ status because Wilt was a much more dominant scorer and Russell the GOAT winner).....MJ played in much more inferior defensive era for a majority of his career then Kobe!

- that's the Facts Jack...




next

[Dr.J4ever]

This whole argument is so stupid.

1. We can never prove who is right because we're dealing with players who don't play anymore

2. The offense improvements (spacing) vs. Defensive improvements (zone, loading the strong side, downing PnR's, 2.9ing) is a chicken or egg argument. Which led to the other?

3. Obviously MJ would still be a dominant player in today's . I guarantee you that he wouldn't be playing the same style of ball he used to, and i guarantee you he'd see more double teams. No one is saying MJ didn't face double teams. No one is saying he didn't face double teams that were ILLEGAL under the rules of the time. I'm just saying he'd be seeing them sooner, and more often because they would be fully legal today.


4. Defensive 3-seconds means nothing. You have to come withing arms reach of an offensive player, or step 1 foot out of the paint and your 3 seconds resets. It's call maybe once every 3 games. Near-full zones are allowed in the NBA at this point. The other day against the Magic, Wizards players were straight screaming at the refs to call 3 seconds, because the magic were just loading the paint every possession. The refs called in ONE TIME, and it didn't change anything.


5. Illegal D rules were really stupid. It allowed players who couldn't shoot to stay on the floor because they could stand far away from the basket and their man still had to defend them. Donnie Nelson would sometimes take a 7 footer and just have him stand 30 feet away from the hoop so that other teams couldn't use their center to defend the paint. Today, some guys who can't shoot just can't play because they mess up spacing so bad, and other guys who are useless besides their shooting get tons of playing time because you can just plant them on the outside and the D has to worry about them.

Illegal D also let you Iso a guy on one side of the floor with the rest of your team on the other side, and the D just had to deal with it.

6. When you watch MJ vids and see a packed paint, most of the time it's because his own teammates were in there getting ready to go for an offensive rebound. Teams try to hit the offensive glass MUCH LESS today. Statistically it's better (for most players) to get back and stop transition buckets than it is to go for offensive putbacks.

I have been telling people here since before that I would watch Julius Erving attack from the elbow, with 76er players isolating the Doc. Caldwell Jones and Dawkins would be way out there, and defenders would have to follow or risk being called for illegal defense.

This was a standard play for early 80s Sixers. Now once Doc gets in the lane, an opponent would run across the court to get in the lane, usually too late and to no avail. Today, as Coach Thibs says, that is a jump shot with a "big" defending a zone or area right outside the paint. You often see this today when a player is trying to isolate.

[GimmeThat]

would Kobe had taken those Wizards squad into the playoffs


debate that.


I'm talking about simply just MAKING the playoffs

[AlphaWolf24]

added.....

IIRC

from around 82' - 92' there were 30 players who scored over 20PPG and shot over 50%

from 2000 - 2010 only 5 players achieved that...IIRC (Lebron did it twice in that time period...so basically 4 players)

[AlphaWolf24]

would Kobe had taken those Wizards squad into the playoffs


debate that.


I'm talking about simply just MAKING the playoffs

yes...06' Lakers ( especially in the east)

Dirk won a championship with a similar squad in 2011.

[atljonesbro]

But the bolded has been shown to be false, since teams did it all the time, specially while guarding MJ.

Not to say it was every single possession, but it was the norm and was called just as often as a palming of the ball is called.

Teams found ways to disguise their defensive schemes.

Today's era is more rule oriented, there's rules upon rules that have changed the game to openly encourage perimeter style play.

MJ would crush today's defense and get to the lane at will. if he was able to beat two and three defenders on his way to the basket all while being bumped and hand checked , imagine just one?

MJ had to work hard just trying to get open. Watching him go through screens to get position is taxing onto itself, let alone after he actually touches the ball. Players like Durant, Wade, Bron, Melo get very little opposition trying to get the ball in the spots they want it in. Rarely do you see them go through multiple screens and run all over the court with their heads chopped off just to get to a spot to get the ball. They usually stand in the perimeter uncontested and unchallenged and they go to work. If they do go into the paint, there is little opposition compared to what MJ and others faced in the past.

I even made a vid a while back showing how even Wizards MJ got to his spots without no opposition. There was possessions in which he didn't even get touched and literally just walked to the spot he wanted to un-opposed. And this was in the early 2k era before the rules got softer.

This guy thinks he's smarter and more qualified than Tom Thibodeau

[gts]

Sometimes it can be complex to judge eras and subtle changes, but yes, there is some truth to more crowded lanes back in the day simply because there were more players posting up or trying to get a shot as close to the rim as possible. Defenders had to stick by their man, since zones were not allowed because of the ILLEGAL DEFENSE RULE . There was far less 3 point shooting especially in the 80s which didn't spread out offenses and defenses.

However, Coach Thibs of the Bulls, one of the NBA's best defensive minds today, still said this :


""When Jordan was playing," Chicago coach Tom Thibodeau said, "if he was isolated at 12 feet or at the elbow, you had to keep your 'big' on the weak side. There was no way you could get him across the lane. Now that you can bring your big over to the strong side, elbow isolations become jump-shot plays. And there's usually four shooters on the floor, at a minimum, and some teams have five."

but but but he's just an NBA coach who's been a defensive specialist since the early 90's.. wtf would he know about this

[gts]

This guy thinks he's smarter and more qualified than Tom Thibodeau

He's a BruceBlitzstan what would you expect?

[Blue&Orange]

So there was "concern" that the new rules would be used by teams to take a big player and just camp him out in the lane. If the old rules permitted this like 3ball and others have been claiming, then why would the new rules make this a concern? Huh?

no arguments let's discuss semantics and even here you fail. If you are scared something can happen with something new, that doesn't mean that it didn't happen with something old.

Nobody says players camp out in the lane, that's a straw argument you idiot.

open up the lanes for cutting and passing

By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates

With more dribble penetration, ball handlers are getting more opportunities at the rim

care to discuss semantics here?

Did you even read the first post on this thread?


I'm not even debate that every single piece of information, points to Jordan having it easier today, i concede, but if you think it would be harder for him, you're a moron and all you have is a out of context quote of a coach, that was talking about a rule change that benefit international player but somehow would hurt Jordan, and that you can easily go to youtube and see teams defend Jordan just like he say they couldn't.

Since you like semantics, just because you can't doesn't mean you won't.


i'm done here.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Faster paced games = more possessions = more blocks......... doesn't = better defense.

2012 Serge Ibaka had a higher block percentage than anyone from the 90s.