Do ppl still think peak Reggie Miller, Ray Allen and Nash are on Currys level?

[Reggie43]

There might be a couple GMs dumb enough to let a 24/2/2 on 46%(28% from 3) series win change their opinions...but not many. Reggie had 2 big games(34 and 41 points) and was 5-18(21 points), 4 of 12(10 points), and 5 of 9(15 points) in the 3 others.

Lets not act like we are talking an epic series. None of those games would be unusual for Ray Allen. Ray topped Reggies career playoff high(that 41) a few times. Hell he did it the next year vs one of the best defenses of that or any era. Reggie dropping 40 past his prime supposed to mean more than Ray dropping 50+ past his prime in the playoffs vs the Bulls? 40 something on the Kings? 76ers? Big games on the Spurs? Absurdly clutch shots as big and in some cases bigger than Reggie ever hit?

There were coach/gms who ranked Reggie behind people many consider role players. You know it...because we have gone over this and ive shown you the quotes and articles.

Reggie just was not as highly regarded as you want to suggest in retrospect.

When multiple HOF coaches think he wasnt the best player on a team that didnt really have any stars im gonna assume they sanction trading prime superstars for him?

Sixers one of the best defenses of any era? Would they even crack your top 10 best defenses ever. 50pts is impressive but that was against the 41-41 Bulls. 40 on the Webber less kings that played no defense is impressive? And do you really think that Ray hitting his clutch shots as a 3rd/4th option and even making Horry/Fisher type contributions on the Heat make him a much better clutch player? Has a Ray Allen led team even beat teams comparable to the likes of Shaq/Penny, Ewing Starks, Iversons Sixers etc which Miller had very good games that are too many to mention and as the best player on his team.

Sure Miller wasn't highly regarded in the regular season but when playoff time came around he was universally praised by the same gm/coaches you are talking about. You gave me those quotes and articles but Im pretty sure there are a ton more saying the opposite about him players, coaches and gms alike.

[Kblaze8855]

What a bunch of nonsense. Reggie actually played a year longer than Ray and he didn't have a couple of stars to carry him, yet still scored with higher efficiency than Ray in the regular season and the playoffs.

You just don't like the numbers because they don't agree with your obvious bias.

Ray never in his entire career had a year as good as Reggie's 3rd season. Reggie scored 24.6 ppg shooting 55.2% from 2 and 41.4% from 3. He also got to the line 7.6 times per game. Ray can't touch that.

You have never seem me talk about career numbers. Especially when the question is peak Ray...as the title says. What do career numbers have to do with the peak of anyone?

[Kblaze8855]

Sixers one of the best defenses of any era? Would they even crack your top 10 best defenses ever. 50pts is impressive but that was against the 41-41 Bulls. 40 on the Webber less kings that played no defense is impressive? And do you really think that Ray hitting his clutch shots as a 3rd/4th option and even making Horry/Fisher type contributions on the Heat make him a much better clutch player? Has a Ray Allen led team even beat teams comparable to the likes of Shaq/Penny, Ewing Starks, Iversons Sixers etc which Miller had very good games that are too many to mention and as the best player on his team.

Sure Miller wasn't highly regarded in the regular season but when playoff time came around he was universally praised by the same gm/coaches you are talking about. You gave me those quotes and articles but Im pretty sure there are a ton more saying the opposite about him players, coaches and gms alike.

People have to stop acting like playoff numbers from a week or two makes a player what he is. And that goes for my favorite players too. Reading 3ball on his "Yea but in the playoffs Jordan shot ___ from 3" shit was cringe inducing.

You are as good as you are vs the NBA....not how good you are vs a single matchup for a week playing outside the usual gameplan forcing the issue.

Not that that has much to do with Reggie. Hes one of those lowered standards stars people make a big deal out of 24-26ppg about as if thats outstanding for someone who does nothing but score.

You really want another 10 page thing where you prop up ECF losses and 24ppg runs that didnt matter and I list 30 obscure players modern fans dont know who did significantly more impressive things?

Want that for your monday? I'll do it...but im not too excited to. We dont need a gang of articles from 1993 with coaches saying Detlef is better than Reggie while you point out some insignificant but dramatic 30 point game in a series that meant nothing.

ITs been done.

Pointing it all out again isnt gonna change much. I'll leave it at this...

when Reggies own coach tells me hes not a leader at all and not what people think he is....im not assuming he tells the GM not to trade him for some MVPs and all NBA types. Reggies trade value would be at best 3rd of the 4 people in question...more likely 4th.

You telling me numbers from games I saw live(in some cases...attended) gives me little to change that assumption.

[DMAVS41]

I'd rank them as:

1. Curry
2. Nash
3. Ray
4. Reggie


Reggie is clearly the worst player of the 4 in my opinion.

[Jailblazers7]

I'd rank them as:

1. Curry
2. Nash
3. Ray
4. Reggie


Reggie is clearly the worst player of the 4 in my opinion.

I'd prob put Ray higher but I agree. I think Reggie is def overrated.

[BIZARRO]

You have never seem me talk about career numbers. Especially when the question is peak Ray...as the title says. What do career numbers have to do with the peak of anyone?

Ray had 8, count' 'em 8, straight seasons avg. 21.8 ppg, or over....Reggie had 2 in his whole career. Somewhere in that peak, Ray's absolute peak beats Reggie.

Reggie's higher shooting % to me is balanced by that Ray was the better all around player, higher boards, assists, etc..

I was around during Reggie's time and he wasn't that highly regarded. Always have felt that people overrate Reggie these days for sure.

All said, Ray vs. Reggie absolute peak is actually pretty close, but I feel like almost all GM's at the time would have taken Ray.

[Reggie43]

People have to stop acting like playoff numbers from a week or two makes a player what he is. And that goes for my favorite players too. Reading 3ball on his "Yea but in the playoffs Jordan shot ___ from 3" shit was cringe inducing.

You are as good as you are vs the NBA....not how good you are vs a single matchup for a week playing outside the usual gameplan forcing the issue.

Not that that has much to do with Reggie. Hes one of those lowered standards stars people make a big deal out of 24-26ppg about as if thats outstanding for someone who does nothing but score.

You really want another 10 page thing where you prop up ECF losses and 24ppg runs that didnt matter and I list 30 obscure players modern fans dont know who did significantly more impressive things?

Want that for your monday?

Yeah we both have our own bias and I wouldnt want another 10 page thing
But I have to disagree with this irregardless on who the players are.

People have to stop acting like playoff numbers from a week or two makes a player what he is. And that goes for my favorite players too. Reading 3ball on his "Yea but in the playoffs Jordan shot ___ from 3" shit was cringe inducing.

You are as good as you are vs the NBA....not how good you are vs a single matchup for a week playing outside the usual gameplan forcing the issue.

Playoffs are where real stars are made and the defenses focus much more and also where the top teams are playing rather than a meaningless regular season game early in the season where you get high numbers on some random bad team hence the reason why too many stars get "exposed" when playoff time comes around.

[DMAVS41]

As for the playoff thing.

I agree with Kblaze that one series or one year don't really mean a lot...however...when looking at like 10 years of prime/peak playoff play...those games matter a whole lot more than the meaningless regular season games playing teams that aren't trying...aren't prepared...are tired...aren't good...etc.

The game changes in the playoffs...it just does. How these guys play against the best teams/players when the games matter the most is of the utmost importance in my opinion.

[Reggie43]

As for the playoff thing.

I agree with Kblaze that one series or one year don't really mean a lot...however...when looking at like 10 years of prime/peak playoff play...those games matter a whole lot more than the meaningless regular season games playing teams that aren't trying...aren't prepared...are tired...aren't good...etc.

The game changes in the playoffs...it just does. How these guys play against the best teams/players when the games matter the most is of the utmost importance in my opinion.

Agreed with this, was about to post something similar wherein you had have atleast close to a seasons worth of playoff games for those numbers to really matter and not appear as a fluke or a lucky stretch.

[KyrieTheFuture]

What a bunch of nonsense. Reggie actually played a year longer than Ray and he didn't have a couple of stars to carry him, yet still scored with higher efficiency than Ray in the regular season and the playoffs.

You just don't like the numbers because they don't agree with your obvious bias.

Ray never in his entire career had a year as good as Reggie's 3rd season. Reggie scored 24.6 ppg shooting 55.2% from 2 and 41.4% from 3. He also got to the line 7.6 times per game. Ray can't touch that.

05-07 Ray getting underrated

[TheBigVeto]

They are not on the same level.
They are much better than Curry in their respective primes.

[Kblaze8855]

On the playoff thing....there are an awful lot of cliches thrown around that have always ignored the most important aspects to me.

Im not watching someone 140 times and deciding how good a player they are using 6-15 of them facing 1-2 defensive schemes.

The playoffs is where the good coaches are separated more than the good players to me.

A player is what he is...you play Dennis rodman in the regular season...hes not going easy on you. Or Jordan. Or Pippen. Blaylock...Payton...Stockton. Any great defender....nor any great defensive team. You play a bad D...bad defenders/poor coaching...its poor in the playoffs too.

What playing the same team 5 times straight does is show how the coaches adjust to eachothers gameplans.

Im not judging one guy on his playoff performance vs a fortunate matchup and acting like hes that good....vs the NBA. Hes that good vs that matchup with those coaches.

Im not watching Baron Davis take the Mavs soul and assuming hes the Point God....nor am I watching Stockton or Tim Hardaway with Gary Payton and Nate Mcmillian in their jersey for 6 games and concluding they are how they perform for that week.

Im not watching Deng abuse an older roster playing a defense he could exploit on his way to like 27ppg then assuming hes a super playoff performer when he cant do it minus the circumstances that allowed it.

Dirk was not the player he appeared to be for 6 games vs the Mavs. The other coach knew him better than he knew himself....

Dirk was as good as he was vs the NBA. Not as good as he was scoring 11 getting knocked out on 2-11 or 2-13 shooting(whatever it was).

He didnt play poorly because it was the playoffs and the warriors were...trying. He played poorly because of an excellent gameplan to slow him and the right personnel to bother him.

They draw someone else he isnt better at basketball. Hes playing a different matchup.

You play a team every couple days for a week the coaches ability to adapt and keep you in position to flourish shows itself more than your individual talent....at least compared to hundreds of games already played.

I just cant in all honesty watch a guy play 29 other teams...with 29 different game plans...29-60 different assigned defenders...bigger...smaller...quicker...slower... stronger...zones...man to man..traps..different decisions on hedging...where to force him..big shots...overtimes...watch him guard 60-70 guys....I cant watch a guy face the gauntlet of matchups and approaches to slowing him for a year...years...and then act like I got more information out of him playing only one style with 1-2 defenders for a week. No matter how well or poorly he plays....I learned more about him playing the NBA...than I learn when he plays one team. Even if its a good team.

Just isnt me.

Its both cliche and correct to say the playoffs are a different game.

But the main difference shows itself in coaching to me.

Guys might perform better or worse....but they dont get better or worse. Awful lot of factors beyond being...that time of year.

[Reggie43]

On the playoff thing....there are an awful lot of cliches thrown around that have always ignored the most important aspects to me.

Im not watching someone 140 times and deciding how good a player they are using 6-15 of them facing 1-2 defensive schemes.

The playoffs is where the good coaches are separated more than the good players to me.

A player is what he is...you play Dennis rodman in the regular season...hes not going easy on you. Or Jordan. Or Pippen. Blaylock...Payton...Stockton. Any great defender....nor any great defensive team. You play a bad D...bad defenders/poor coaching...its poor in the playoffs too.

What playing the same team 5 times straight does is show how the coaches adjust to eachothers gameplans.

Im not judging one guy on his playoff performance vs a fortunate matchup and acting like hes that good....vs the NBA. Hes that good vs that matchup with those coaches.

Im not watching Baron Davis take the Mavs soul and assuming hes the Point God....nor am I watching Stockton or Tim Hardaway with Gary Payton and Nate Mcmillian in their jersey for 6 games and concluding they are how they perform for that week.

Im not watching Deng abuse an older roster playing a defense he could exploit on his way to like 27ppg then assuming hes a super playoff performer when he cant do it minus the circumstances that allowed it.

Dirk was not the player he appeared to be for 6 games vs the Mavs. The other coach knew him better than he knew himself....

Dirk was as good as he was vs the NBA. Not as good as he was scoring 11 getting knocked out on 2-11 or 2-13 shooting(whatever it was).

He didnt play poorly because it was the playoffs and the warriors were...trying. He played poorly because of an excellent gameplan to slow him and the right personnel to bother him.

They draw someone else he isnt better at basketball. Hes playing a different matchup.

You play a team every couple days for a week the coaches ability to adapt and keep you in position to flourish shows itself more than your individual talent....at least compared to hundreds of games already played.

I just cant in all honesty watch a guy play 29 other teams...with 29 different game plans...29-60 different assigned defenders...bigger...smaller...quicker...slower... stronger...zones...man to man..traps..different decisions on hedging...where to force him..big shots...overtimes...watch him guard 60-70 guys....I cant watch a guy face the gauntlet of matchups and approaches to slowing him for a year...years...and then act like I got more information out of him playing only one style with 1-2 defenders for a week. No matter how well or poorly he plays....I learned more about him playing the NBA...than I learn when he plays one team. Even if its a good team.

Just isnt me.

Its both cliche and correct to say the playoffs are a different game.

But the main difference shows itself in coaching to me.

Guys might perform better or worse....but they dont get better or worse. Awful lot of factors beyond being...that time of year.

If you bothered to read a few posts back we were talking about how a careers worth of playoffs games is a better indicative of your true worth as a player rather than random regular season games or a playoff matchup for a single series.

[Kblaze8855]

Just doesnt hold up to me. Reggie Miller forcing extra shots in a loss because its the playoffs doesnt mean hes better than he is in the regular season. Reggie never played 40 minutes in a regular season. Did in 5 or 6 playoff runs. Reggie takes 20 shots 3 times in the 3 months leading to the playoffs...takes over 20 every game of the playoffs....including his season high while playing 46 minutes. So he scores 30 a game while losing.

Playing 45 minutes a game and shooting more does not show your true value.

You know what does? Your usual performance.

The playoffs skews numbers all over. Guys like AI played 45 minutes a game over 70+ playoff games. So he shoots 27 times a game in the playoffs as opposed to 22 normally. So he scores under 27 a game for his career but 30 in the playoffs.

There have been guys who didnt sit down....for an entire series. A lot of them.

You run stars into the ground, they shoot more than usual(both due to minutes and because stars are often asked to sore more), and often force shots on their way to being knocked out(stars have often shot more in losses than wins...close losses especially).

It isnt a more accurate representation of how they play than....their normal play.

Guys....stars especially...dont play normally in the playoffs.

Forcing it doesnt show who you really are.

You are your general level of play. Playoffs and regular season.

I wouldnt need a number of any kind to know what Reggie Miller was. I dont think you would either.

[Reggie43]

Just doesnt hold up to me. Reggie Miller forcing extra shots in a loss because its the playoffs doesnt mean hes better than he is in the regular season. Reggie never played 40 minutes in a regular season. Did in 5 or 6 playoff runs. Reggie takes 20 shots 3 times in the 3 months leading to the playoffs...takes over 20 every game of the playoffs....including his season high while playing 46 minutes. So he scores 30 a game while losing.

Playing 45 minutes a game and shooting more does not show your true value.

You know what does? Your usual performance.

The playoffs skews numbers all over. Guys like AI played 45 minutes a game over 70+ playoff games. So he shoots 27 times a game in the playoffs as opposed to 22 normally. So he scores under 27 a game for his career but 30 in the playoffs.

There have been guys who didnt sit down....for an entire series. A lot of them.

You run stars into the ground, they shoot more than usual, and often force shots on their way to being knocked out.

It isnt a more accurate representation of how they play than....their normal play.

Guys....stars especially...dont play normally in the playoffs.

Forcing it doesnt show who you really are.

You are your general level of play. Playoffs and regular season.

I wouldnt need a number of any kind to know what Reggie Miller was. I dont think you would either.

How about forgetting about Reggie Miller and looking at it in general? Fact of the matter is that players try more in the playoffs and you cant refute that. They focus more when playoff time comes around.