where does Dirk rank among all time greatest PFs?

[tpols]

Somehow 31 year old KG can put up 19ppg on 59% TS with prime Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Rondo, and a slew of other quality role players on his team...and yet peak KG with elite offensive weapons around him would be a 15 ppg.

LOL

Yea that's just absolutely ridiculous. Ray and Pierce were both 25ppg players on their own and KG had more ppg than both of them in their title year.

[DMAVS41]

this is the problem with circumstances going the other way. most of the time we don't value circumstances enough.

in the case of KG...his fans and proponents want to turn him into an entirely different player than he actually was and start saying he's on a level as a player he just wasn't on.

putting KG on better teams does not turn him into Hakeem. just doesn't.

[DMAVS41]

Yea that's just absolutely ridiculous. Ray and Pierce were both 25ppg players on their own and KG had more ppg than both of them in their title year.

Please answer.

Was 08 Ray Allen and 08 Paul Pierce all time elite offensive forces?

Jesus...now we have to go nuts about scoring 20 ppg on 54% TS???????? Hilarious.

[Milbuck]

Yea...it just is.

Please show me some player rankings in which Hakeem or KG is ranked over Magic.

I am addressing your points.

You just seem to continue to think I care about titles or other non sense.

And you seem hell bent on thinking KG would just turn into some high efficient player scoring 25 a game having an offense run through him.

It's not happening. Not his game at all. Got to judge these players at least a little on what they actually do.

He's a 52.5% TS player for his career in the playoffs.

I hate to bring those guys up and I'm not posting the link...but go look at RealGayMen's peaks project. They have Hakeem above Magic. And as much as I don't like that place, they have some pretty intelligent and long-time bball fans there. And that's just one example..there are tons of people who think peak Hakeem > Magic.

I'm not saying Hakeem is definitively better than Magic. But you are rewriting reality if you think it's not a debatable topic, and that there's no way you could rank Hakeem as a player over Magic. It's just not true and I don't know what leads you to believe it.

And there you go again with the TS% stat, completely dismissing context. Why is it that KG was a 46% FG player in the playoffs from the time he broke out as a star to his last playoff series in Minnesota, but a 50% FG player his first couple playoffs with Boston before he got hurt? Because he finally got an elite coach and elite support around him to make the game easier for him. This stuff matters.

And while this entire discussion has shifted to offense somehow, I'd like to bring back the point that the defensive impact between KG and Magic is massive. Monumental difference. One of the most versatile and dominant defensive anchors ever vs someone who on his absolute best day was just good.

I find it incredibly lazy to just throw this aside as if it doesn't matter. That you can just casually say something like "KG's defensive impact is overrated" and act like that's the end of the discussion right there.

[tpols]

Please answer.

Was 08 Ray Allen and 08 Paul Pierce all time elite offensive forces?

Jesus...now we have to go nuts about scoring 20 ppg on 54% TS???????? Hilarious.

Yes that's elite offensive help. Prime ray Allen and Paul Pierce is great offensive help.. They weren't perennial all stars and HOFers for their defense.

And end prime KG was still a 20ppg scorer on that team. I see no reason why peak KG couldn't do 22ish ppg on a great team. He did 20 four years removed from it..

15ppg is just laughable.. You think this guy is Ben Wallace lmao.

[DMAVS41]

I hate to bring those guys up...but go look at RealGayMen's peaks project. They have Hakeem above Magic. And as much as I don't like that place, they have some pretty intelligent and long-time bball fans there. And that's just one example..there are tons of people who think peak Hakeem > Magic.

I'm not saying Hakeem is definitively better than Magic. But you are rewriting reality if you think it's not a debatable topic, and that there's no way you could rank Hakeem as a player over Magic. It's just not true and I don't know what leads you to believe it.

And there you go again with the TS% stat, completely dismissing context. Why is it that KG was a 46% FG player in the playoffs from the time he broke out as a star to his last playoff series in Minnesota, but a 50% FG player his first couple playoffs with Boston before he got hurt? Because he finally got an elite coach and elite support around him to make the game easier for him.

And while this entire discussion has shifted to offense somehow, I'd like to bring back the point that the defensive impact between KG and Magic is massive. Monumental difference. One of the most versatile and dominant defensive anchors ever vs someone who on his absolute best day was just good.

I find it incredibly lazy to just throw this aside as if it doesn't matter. That you can just casually say something like "KG's defensive impact is overrated" and act like that's the end of the discussion right there.

We already agree on the defense. What more do you need here? He is a top 10 defensive player of all time. Is any refuting his defensive impact?

TS is far more valid than any other efficiency metric. KG is what he is. He's not going to turn into Hakeem on offense. Never would...doesn't matter who he plays with.

We could use offensive rating....or any other offensive metric you want.

What I'm simply saying is that Magic's offensive is more valuable than KG's defensive and offensive versatility. By a wide margin.

It's why Dirk and KG are a legit debate while KG is like 3 times better defensively and a very good offensive player in his own right.

How could that be? Well, it's obvious. What Dirk is elite at simply is more valuable in the game of basketball on the individual level. It's why Nash was probably better than gary payton...and on down the list.

You obviously don't get that. And that is the huge flaw in your thinking.

I'm a big stats guy, but there isn't going to be a stat that captures the impact fully of Magic or a Dirk on offense. Too much goes unnoticed in the numbers.

You'd have to really go in depth watching video and games and sit next to each other and explain the impact each had. How Dirk's mere presence in a pick and roll just destroys KG's passing ability in terms of value. Stuff like that.

[DMAVS41]

Yes that's elite offensive help. Prime ray Allen and Paul Pierce is great offensive help.. They weren't perennial all stars and HOFers for their defense.

And end prime KG was still a 20ppg scorer on that team. I see no reason why peak KG couldn't do 22ish ppg on a great team. He did 20 four years removed from it..

15ppg is just laughable.. You think this guy is Ben Wallace lmao.

We have different definitions of elite here. if we are comparing it to Magic level help...like Kareem etc....those guys don't qualify.

and rofl...ray allen was not in his prime at age 32 in 08....especially battling some nagging injuries from the year before where he missed a lot of games iirc.

[DMAVS41]

Got to run.

Magic >>>>>>>>>>>>> KG...it's just not close

Hakeem was also considerably better than Magic...something I just don't think even you guys would refute....

Dirk > KG...now...after Dirk is doing things players at this age just rarely do.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

top 5 for sure. Duncan is clearly number 1. Then Pettit/Dirk/KG/ in some order.

[navy]

top 5 for sure. Duncan is clearly number 1. Then Pettit/Dirk/KG/ in some order.

You forgot Malone and Barkley.

[Milbuck]

We already agree on the defense. What more do you need here? He is a top 10 defensive player of all time. Is any refuting his defensive impact?

TS is far more valid than any other efficiency metric. KG is what he is. He's not going to turn into Hakeem on offense. Never would...doesn't matter who he plays with.

We could use offensive rating....or any other offensive metric you want.

What I'm simply saying is that Magic's offensive is more valuable than KG's defensive and offensive versatility. By a wide margin.

It's why Dirk and KG are a legit debate while KG is like 3 times better defensively and a very good offensive player in his own right.

How could that be? Well, it's obvious. What Dirk is elite at simply is more valuable in the game of basketball on the individual level. It's why Nash was probably better than gary payton...and on down the list.

You obviously don't get that. And that is the huge flaw in your thinking.

I'm a big stats guy, but there isn't going to be a stat that captures the impact fully of Magic or a Dirk on offense. Too much goes unnoticed in the numbers.

You'd have to really go in depth watching video and games and sit next to each other and explain the impact each had. How Dirk's mere presence in a pick and roll just destroys KG's passing ability in terms of value. Stuff like that.

This is all just you refusing to budge on a clearly exaggerated claim that "it's not even close". I don't know why you're so adamant to stick to that position when every statistical and observable measure tells you you're wrong, but it is what it is. No one aside from fpliii is saying KG is better than Magic. But you've got it ingrained in your head that Magic's offense is so otherworldly that the difference between his offense and KG's offense is big enough to not just trump KG's defensive impact, but blow it out of the water.

I swear it's like you think we're talking about Elton freaking Brand or something.

As for the unquantifiable impact...the exact same thing can be said about KG's defense. Even for all the advanced metrics that show clearly how insanely valuable KG is as a player, it still doesn't encapsulate his total impact. How much of a game changer he was on defense at his absolute best.

And to that he was a 24 ppg, 6 apg player who could stretch the floor and pass like a guard. He was a legitimate #1 option on offense who just needed another elite offensive weapon on his team to take some pressure off...I don't think that's that unreasonable when guys like Bird had McHale as an unstoppable post presence offensively, Magic had Worthy and ****ing Kareem, Kobe had Shaq and then Gasol, etc. KG was a #1 option on a championship team at 31. Give him Allen and Pierce in 2004 (as their 2008 versions) and KG is still giving you something like 23/5 on offense..because he was elite offensively. Not legendary but elite. And acting like he was some glorified third option is blatant revisionist history.

[Milbuck]

Got to run.

Magic > KG...it's just not close

Ugh. Fixed.

Good talk.

[97 bulls]

It's a complicated argument, but as simply as I can put it.

Magic's ability to control the game and lead offensively and get the most out of his teammates and 7% better TS in the playoffs (and under-rated defense) trumps KG's elite defense and versatility.

But honestly...I just think this is a case of a lot of you not really ever watching Magic play.

He was better than Hakeem. He was better than KG. I really don't think many that actually watched them all play would refute that.

I think you're missing his point. Magic was great but he had great players around him. Garnett had comparable talent in 08, 09, and maybe 10. Put Worthy, Scott, early 30 Jabbar in any other situation and their still 20 ppg scorers. And in Jabbar and Worthys case hofers. Can you say the same Spreewell and Cassell?

[navy]

Seems we are using elite too loosely here. KG a great player in his own right but he was never considered elite offensively. There is a pretty long list of better offensive players than him. Some lesser players that have no business being ranked near him except when we are talking about offense alone. In fact running down the list of top PFs offensively he is near the bottom.

That being said, I think KG's set is better suited for a 2nd or 3rd option offensively. He was never the type to explode and straight up drag teams in the playoffs offensively. And he has one season above 25ppg in the playoffs.

That doesnt mean he cant lead a balanced team in scoring at like 20ppg. Or that he isnt the best player on the team, because he was/is is pretty much all the teams he has been on.

But offensively? Elite? No.

2nd or 3rd option? I dont see what's wrong with that. In fact, running down the top ten list plenty of the players werent first option material (better stated that they would be better off as 2nd or 3rd options) for some or even most their rings. Russel, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan. Well Shaq and Kobe are abit different circumstances considered.

But there is no problem regulating KG to a second or third option offensive role.

[Hey Yo]

What I'm simply saying is that Magic's offensive is more valuable than KG's defensive and offensive versatility. By a wide margin.

Not sure about that.

KG could score from anywhere on the floor 15 - 20ft or closer. Great jumper facing the basket also with a great turnaround jumper. Great low post game.

Magic's offense consisted of getting to the post with his back to the basket. Pound the rock while working his way closer to the basket. Go for the spin around layup or look for the cutter. The current back to the basket rule would have hurt his offensive massively. Plus Magic had no jump shot whatsoever. He couldn't shoot the ball outside from the perimeter until like his 10th year in the league.

Yes, I will give him the great passing and floor general.

I would say KG's defense massively outweighs Magic's because he was horrible. To where Magic's offensive wasn't better enough than KG's to say Magic was the better all around player by a wide margin.

People rate (not implying you) Magic top 5 w/o taking his atrocious defense and no jump shot into perspective.