Wilt's Last Fully Healthy Game

[LAZERUSS]

Ok fair enough, valid points all around. Yet still a lot of factors to be considered. Wilt put up those numbers in the early 60's, never came close to replicating them in the 70's (I know different role, still why did they ask him to take a back seat? you can also consider the all around competition was better in the 70's). And Wilt didn't school young Kareem, the stats suggest it was a close match with Kareem getting the upper hand yet stats can be very deceiving. Nor did old Kareem school young Hakeem, it wasn't even a domination. And we also have the biggest knock on Wilt's almighty statistic domination, 18 ppg finals career average? 22 ppg playoffs career average? Although we cannot prove it with such a simple analysis, these stats imply that Wilt cannot dominate when the pressure is on, when the defense tightens up, when he is needed most to score he couldn't. But yeah blame it on his team and the coach, it was never Wilt's fault.

A 38-39 year old Kareem, over the course of TEN STRAIGHT H2H games against a 23-24 year old Hakeem...AVERAGED 32 ppg and on a .621 FG%. Included were three games of 40, 43, and 46 points (on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.) It was so bad that the Rockets coach was ripped for allowing Hakeem to defend KAJ one-on-one. In fact, he moved Sampson as the primary defender on Kareem in the WCF's.

And the Hakeem-lovers take pride in Hakeem, (who was not the primary defender), outscoring KAJ in the '86 WCF's, 31-27 ppg, outrebounding him, 11-7 rpg, and outshooting him, .520 to .496. A 39 year old Kareem. BUT, they will excuse a 36 year year old Hakeem getting murdering by a 26 year old Shaq in the '99 playoffs. The reality was, a PEAK Kareem, at 23-24 years old, would have just annihilated any version of Hakeem.

As for the Wilt-Kareem H2H's... 28 career H2H's, 27 of which involved a 34-36 year old Wilt, playing on a surgically repaired knee. NONE of them with a PRIME Chamberlain, although a 33 year old Wilt had his way with rookie Kareem. In fact, over the course of their first 11 H2H's, Chamberlain won the majority of the statistical battles, this despite playing 10 of them a year after major knee surgery.

What we never were fortunate enough to see, was a PRIME Chamberlain against a PRIME Kareem. All we can go by are their H2H's with the same centers that both faced in their primes...and Wilt was CLEARLY more dominant.

And we have already shredded this post-season "decline" nonsense MANY times, and even YOU know it. A peak "scoring" Wilt only played in 52 of his 160 playoff games, and out of those 30 were against Russell. But, even with facing Russell in two-thirds of them, he still averaged 33 ppg, 26 rpg, and shot .505 (in leagues that shot about .420 in that same span.)

And of course, Wilt was arguably the greatest "must win" player in NBA history:

Wilt's numbers in those 23 games...13 of which came against HOF starting centers.

12-11 W-L record

31.1 ppg (Regular season career average was 30.1 ppg)
26.1 rpg (Regular season career average was 22.9 rpg)
3.4 apg (Regular season career average was 4.4 apg)
.540 FG% (Regular season career average was .540 FG%)


3 games of 50+ points

5 games of 40+ points (including a Finals 40+ elimination game)

13 games of 30+ points

6 games of 30+ rebounds

20 games of 20+ rebounds

So much for the "choker" label.

[LAZERUSS]

Ok fair enough, valid points all around. Yet still a lot of factors to be considered. Wilt put up those numbers in the early 60's, never came close to replicating them in the 70's (I know different role, still why did they ask him to take a back seat? you can also consider the all around competition was better in the 70's). And Wilt didn't school young Kareem, the stats suggest it was a close match with Kareem getting the upper hand yet stats can be very deceiving. Nor did old Kareem school young Hakeem, it wasn't even a domination. And we also have the biggest knock on Wilt's almighty statistic domination, 18 ppg finals career average? 22 ppg playoffs career average? Although we cannot prove it with such a simple analysis, these stats imply that Wilt cannot dominate when the pressure is on, when the defense tightens up, when he is needed most to score he couldn't. But yeah blame it on his team and the coach, it was never Wilt's fault.

Just read the OP. Wilt, in his 68-69 season, and at age 32, hung two 60+ games (60 and 66 point games...the last of which came on 29-35 FG/FGAs.) In fact, SI was about to run an article claiming that Wilt could no longer score, and he unleashed that 60 point game the night before it hit the newstands. And over the course of 17 straight games, he averaged 31.1 ppg, including a 35 point game against Russell. Unfortunately for Wilt and the Lakers, VBK put the clamps on Wilt in the post-season, and preferred to ride the coattails of West, and a Baylor who would shoot .385 from the field.

And, with a new coach in that 69-70 season, Wilt started out on fire, and was leading the league in scoring at 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG%), when he blew out his knee. This was eight years after his historic 61-62 season, and at the beginning of what would have been a new decade. . And Kareem was now in the league, as well. Kareem would of course go on to have a great career, but he never approached Wilt's domination.

[LAZERUSS]

nobody gives a shit.

Thanks for not only reading the topic, but for taking time out of your busy day to comment on it, as well.

[LAZERUSS]

There may be some, but aside from Wilt, himself, it would be interesting to see a list of players who put up a nine straight game cumulative average of 32 ppg, 20 rpg, 3 apg, and a .579 FG%...(and in one of them, to only play 28 minutes)...

[Asukal]

A 38-39 year old Kareem, over the course of TEN STRAIGHT H2H games against a 23-24 year old Hakeem...AVERAGED 32 ppg and on a .621 FG%. Included were three games of 40, 43, and 46 points (on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.) It was so bad that the Rockets coach was ripped for allowing Hakeem to defend KAJ one-on-one. In fact, he moved Sampson as the primary defender on Kareem in the WCF's.

And the Hakeem-lovers take pride in Hakeem, (who was not the primary defender), outscoring KAJ in the '86 WCF's, 31-27 ppg, outrebounding him, 11-7 rpg, and outshooting him, .520 to .496. A 39 year old Kareem. BUT, they will excuse a 36 year year old Hakeem getting murdering by a 26 year old Shaq in the '99 playoffs. The reality was, a PEAK Kareem, at 23-24 years old, would have just annihilated any version of Hakeem.

As for the Wilt-Kareem H2H's... 28 career H2H's, 27 of which involved a 34-36 year old Wilt, playing on a surgically repaired knee. NONE of them with a PRIME Chamberlain, although a 33 year old Wilt had his way with rookie Kareem. In fact, over the course of their first 11 H2H's, Chamberlain won the majority of the statistical battles, this despite playing 10 of them a year after major knee surgery.

What we never were fortunate enough to see, was a PRIME Chamberlain against a PRIME Kareem. All we can go by are their H2H's with the same centers that both faced in their primes...and Wilt was CLEARLY more dominant.

And we have already shredded this post-season "decline" nonsense MANY times, and even YOU know it. A peak "scoring" Wilt only played in 52 of his 160 playoff games, and out of those 30 were against Russell. But, even with facing Russell in two-thirds of them, he still averaged 33 ppg, 26 rpg, and shot .505 (in leagues that shot about .420 in that same span.)

And of course, Wilt was arguably the greatest "must win" player in NBA history:



So much for the "choker" label.

This is what disqualifies Wilt from the GOAT label, it's always excuse after excuse. You always cherrypick the stats that suits your agenda. Fact of the matter is he averaged 18 and 22 for his whole career in the PO.

Second point, he is not the greatest must win player in NBA history. He lost too many times to even be in that conversation. You wanna cherrypick stats go ahead. Again, blame the teams and the coach if it makes you feel better.

[millwad]

This is what disqualifies Wilt from the GOAT label, it's always excuse after excuse. You always cherrypick the stats that suits your agenda. Fact of the matter is he averaged 18 and 22 for his whole career in the PO.

Second point, he is not the greatest must win player in NBA history. He lost too many times to even be in that conversation. You wanna cherrypick stats go ahead. Again, blame the teams and the coach if it makes you feel better.

Never trust Jlauber/Lazeruss/Audio_One/Houston and the other alts. he has. He is the biggest clown on this site.

I still remember when he used to claim that Kareem got "murdered" by Wilt in '72, then I checked their head-to-head stats and Kareem averaged 40 points on 50% shooting against Wilt in the regular season while outscoring Wilt with 23 points per game on better FG% while outassisting him as well. It was pretty obvious why he didn't want to post the numbers from that series.


And I just love how Jlauber/Lazerus keeps calling Wilt "the greatest must win player". It's so hilarious since Wilt is the same guy who gave away a ring in '69 finals due to massive choking from the FT-line.

The so called greatest must win player only made 2 out of 11 FT's in game 4 of the '69 finals, the Lakers lost that game with 1 point and Wilt only scored a total on 8 points in that game.

And then in game 7 in the finals he choked yet again, the Lakers lost with 2 points and Wilt only scored 18 points while only making 4 out of 13 FT's.

CHOKER.

[Psileas]

This is what disqualifies Wilt from the GOAT label, it's always excuse after excuse. You always cherrypick the stats that suits your agenda. Fact of the matter is he averaged 18 and 22 for his whole career in the PO.

Putting stats into perspective is not cherry picking. E.g, it's equally fact of the matter that Wilt averaged 22.9 rpg in his career and 24.5 rpg in his playoff career. I guess you'd be willing to offer some, as you'd call it, "excuse" for why these numbers are so astronomically high.

Edit: It's not 18 and 22. It's 19 and 23. Not an excuse, either, just a fact.

[Asukal]

Putting stats into perspective is not cherry picking. E.g, it's equally fact of the matter that Wilt averaged 22.9 rpg in his career and 24.5 rpg in his playoff career. I guess you'd be willing to offer some, as you'd call it, "excuse" for why these numbers are so astronomically high.

Edit: It's not 18 and 22. It's 19 and 23. Not an excuse, either, just a fact.

Ok explain the "astronomical" drop off from 30.1 ppg in the regular season.

[HomieWeMajor]

Wilt =6'11 Reggie Evans with infinite touches on offense

[CavaliersFTW]

Ok explain the "astronomical" drop off from 30.1 ppg in the regular season.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=260704

Nothing astronomical about it. He played relatively more playoff games as a past-his prime player under non-scoring roles than he did under scoring roles. The NBA playoff seasons used to be shorter early in his career, and like many superstars (Jordan included) his prime years were spent on teams improperly built for playoff and title runs. Pretty simple concept to understand.

[jongib369]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=260704

Nothing astronomical about it. He played relatively more playoff games as a past-his prime player under non-scoring roles than he did under scoring roles. The NBA playoff seasons used to be shorter early in his career, and like many superstars (Jordan included) his prime years were spent on teams improperly built for playoff and title runs. Pretty simple concept to understand.

People can't seem to grasp this....

I've seen people say it even AFTER being told

[CavaliersFTW]

People can't seem to grasp this....

I've seen people say it even AFTER being told

Of course, Asukal is one of those people, he posted on the second page of that thread. Simply deflected acknowledgement and proceeded to imply that role changes are a bad thing and should also be used against Wilt. No surprise at all he pretends he never learned about or saw the ratio of Playoff games vs regular season games Wilt played under different roles

[millwad]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=260704

Nothing astronomical about it. He played relatively more playoff games as a past-his prime player under non-scoring roles than he did under scoring roles. The NBA playoff seasons used to be shorter early in his career, and like many superstars (Jordan included) his prime years were spent on teams improperly built for playoff and title runs. Pretty simple concept to understand.

Jordan has a higher ppg average in the playoffs compared to the regular season.

Wilt dropped in terms of scoring efficiency in almost every playoff year he played compared to the regular season. That excuse is just bad, that is why no one accept that excuse.

And Wilt never won a ring as the main scorer, that actually says a lot about how effective Wilt actually was. You guys like to cherry pick Wilt on his high scoring seasons but that leaves out his two rings, two rings he won as a sidekick in terms of scoring.

Wilt just wasn't THAT effective as a scorer as you guys want us to believe.

[millwad]

People can't seem to grasp this....

I've seen people say it even AFTER being told

Because it's a bogus excuse, Wilt dropped in terms of FG% and points in his scoring prime as well.

[senelcoolidge]

Wilt was the most dominate player ever. It's there. But people will see what they want to see. Believe what they want to believe.