Is Kobe a top 5 GOAT scorer? And who is in your top 5?

[Optimus Prime]

Considering he is currently #4, soon to be #3, yes?

[Optimus Prime]

That said....

Kobes skillset justifies top 3-5 talk.

Off the top of my head the only midrange/outside shooters who compare to Kobe in the post are Bird, Jordan in his prime, and arguably Oscar and West depending on what you want to call an outside shot.

Maybe Dirk too if you factor in the work he does when he faces up in the post.

And of those guys only Jordan got to the basket as well or better. Maybe West depending on who you ask.

His footwork and positioning are elite. He can get open off the ball. He has both hands. He has every variety of jumper....hook shots...floaters. He can go left or right. He doesnt need to be open...hes on a short list of the best tough shot makers of all time. SO he doesn't need the play to go his way to get a shot he can make which isn't the case with a number of people who can score the same 30 a game...but not get you a shot on command. He doesn't have any holes in his skillset...he just lacks some of the physical advantages that let a number of people get easier shots.

But you cant really discredit people for their physical gifts. Lebron, Jordan, or Wilt minus physical gifts wouldn't be what they were/are. But Kobe in Dell Currys body wouldn't be Kobe either.

When Kblaze speaks, listen.

The way Kobe's game has evolved from dunks and athleticism to an amazing midrange game and crafty post play is truly a thing to behold. His basketball IQ and footwork are legendary. His shot selection is not always the best; sometimes just Kobe being Kobe, sometimes out of necessity.

To say that Kobe hasn't been one of the best scorers in NBA history is to not consider his entire body of work. Most haters and trolls just spout "lol 6/24" without looking at how Kobe has evolved his game as he's aged.

[ArbitraryWater]

I don't really care about "skillset"... You can have no skillset and poop the ball in the basket if you can.

I just want the guy who can get me the Points in the most efficient ways.

Kobe's shot selection and possible lack of physical gifts later on against other greats are a reality.

Give all the guys the same amount of shots, Kobe won't end up in the top 5 of the Players with the most Points...

I got:

Jordan
Shaq
LeBron
Kareem
? Wilt/West

[dreamwarrior]

On the blacktop:
Kobe
Durant
Manigault
Hammond
Archibald

On parque:
Jordan
Shaq
Barkley
Nowitski
Malone

On hardwood:
Kareem
Wilt
Robertson
Havlicek
West

[Lebronxrings]

MJ
Shaq
Lebron
Kareem
Dirk

this and dubetas

/thread

[Warfan]

When Kblaze speaks, listen.

The way Kobe's game has evolved from dunks and athleticism to an amazing midrange game and crafty post play is truly a thing to behold. His basketball IQ and footwork are legendary. His shot selection is not always the best; sometimes just Kobe being Kobe, sometimes out of necessity.

To say that Kobe hasn't been one of the best scorers in NBA history is to not consider his entire body of work. Most haters and trolls just spout "lol 6/24" without looking at how Kobe has evolved his game as he's aged.

And you got rid of his point about actually putting the ball in the basket which is very important too. Like I said I don't mind having kobe in the top 5, I highly respect his scoring ability and skillet and have praised it a ton in this thread already. He is a legend.

@LAZ

You bring up a good point about the ability to create shots under pressure and against good defenses. But wouldn't you say overall Kobe hasnt been that great against those types of defenses?? I mean he shoots around 40% in the finals, and he has been there 7 times, 4 times when he wasnt the best player either.

Heck I've seen you criticise him for plenty of times when kobetards attack Wilt and you end up posting kobe's scoring & shooting numbers in the last game of the season. Like this...

And how about Kobe in his Finals?

Quote:
99-00
Regular season 22.5 ppg .468 FG%
Finals 15.6 ppg .367 FG%
FG% in thelast Game of Series .296 FG%

00-01
Regular season 28.5 ppg .464 FG%
Finals 24.6 ppg .415 FG%
Last Game .389

01-02
Regular season 25.2 ppg .469
Finals 26.8 ppg .514
Last Game .438

03-04
Regular season 24.0 ppg .438
Finals 22.6 ppg .381
Last Game .333

07-08
Regular season 28.3 ppg .459
Finals 25.7 ppg .405
Last game of the series, .318

08-09
Regular season 26.8 ppg .467
Finals 32.4 ppg .430
Last game of the series, .435

09-10
Regular season 27.0 ppg .456
Finals 28.6 ppg .405
Last game of the series, .250 from the floor.


Other noteables:


97-98
Swept by Utah 4-0.
Kobe averages 10.0 ppg on a .367 FG%

98-99
Swept by San Antonio 4-0
Last game of the series : Kobe 16 points on a .438 FG%

02-03
Lose to Spurs in WCF's, 4-2.
Last game loss by a score of 110-82 (Kobe with 20 points in a season in which he averaged 30 ppg)

03-04 Finals
Heavily favored Lakers lose to Pistons, 4-1.
In the clinching game five loss Kobe shoots .333 in a 100-87 loss (and LA was down 23 going into 4th quarter)

04-05
team goes 34-48 and misses playoffs

05-06
Regular season 35.4 ppg .450
Playoffs 27.9 ppg .497
Last game (7) 24 points in a 121-90 loss (after blowing a 3-1 series lead)

06-07
Team goes 42-40
Loses in first round to Suns, 4-1.
Last game of that series, Kobe shoots .394 from the floor

07-08
Lakers are blown out by Celts in Finals.
In game four the Lakers blow a 23 point lead, and lose, in a game in which Kobe shot .316 from the field.
In the clinching game six loss, the Lakers lose by a Finals record margin of 131-92. Kobe shoots .318 from the floor.

10-11
Lakers with HCA are swept by the Mavs, 4-0.
In the clinching game four loss, LA loses 122-86, and Kobe shoots .389 from the field.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...0&postcount=77



As for the 35ppg season, again amazing. But I don't need to bring up the rules changes that clearly bumped up perimeter scoring that year. Heck, LeBron and Iverson only scored 2-3 less ppg that year on the same efficiency and you never hear that brought up at all. And yes he has had historic regular season performances, but I value the playoff scoring a lot more than regular season.

Again I'm not trying to bash Kobe, if your criteria is just ability to create and hit shots and based on skillet which helps a player do that, then fine Kobe is definitely top 5 all time in terms of that. I just think a bit more needs to be considered...

[LAZERUSS]

And you got rid of his point about actually putting the ball in the basket which is very important too. Like I said I don't mind having kobe in the top 5, I highly respect his scoring ability and skillet and have praised it a ton in this thread already. He is a legend.

@LAZ

You bring up a good point about the ability to create shots under pressure and against good defenses. But wouldn't you say overall Kobe hasnt been that great against those types of defenses?? I mean he shoots around 40% in the finals, and he has been there 7 times, 4 times when he wasnt the best player either.

Heck I've seen you criticise him for plenty of times when kobetards attack Wilt and you end up posting kobe's scoring & shooting numbers in the last game of the season. Like this...



http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...0&postcount=77



As for the 35ppg season, again amazing. But I don't need to bring up the rules changes that clearly bumped up perimeter scoring that year. Heck, LeBron and Iverson only scored 2-3 less ppg that year on the same efficiency and you never hear that brought up at all. And yes he has had historic regular season performances, but I value the playoff scoring a lot more than regular season.

Again I'm not trying to bash Kobe, if your criteria is just ability to create and hit shots and based on skillet which helps a player do that, then fine Kobe is definitely top 5 all time in terms of that. I just think a bit more needs to be considered...

Kobe's Finals were generally putrid. But his overall play in the playoffs was exceptional. He OWNED the Spurs in their several post-season series.

[Warfan]

Kobe's Finals were generally putrid. But his overall play in the playoffs was exceptional. He OWNED the Spurs in their several post-season series.

Ok, he's 'owned' the Spurs twice. In 2001 and 2008, maybe in 2004 but i wouldnt say he 'owned' them that series....I can bring up his struggles against Boston in 2008, Detroit in 2004 and some of the other series you mentioned in that quote. So you say he was 'putrid' in the finals. Can someone who is 'definitely a top 5 scorer' ever be 'putrid' on the biggest stage in basketball? I have my doubts...

[navy]

Ok, he's 'owned' the Spurs twice. In 2001 and 2008, maybe in 2004 but i wouldnt say he 'owned' them that series....I can bring up his struggles against Boston in 2008 & 2010, Detroit in 2004 and some of the other series you mentioned in that quote. So you say he was 'putrid' in the finals. Can someone who is 'definitely a top 5 scorer' ever be 'putrid' on the biggest stage in basketball? I have my doubts...

Seems kinda nitpicky. Plenty of people struggle at various times.

Kobe has the number 1 or 2 complete scoring skillset of all time.
Number 4 in total points of all time. (on the way up)
2nd highest scoring game of all time at 81 points
35ppg season. Top 3 I believe.

He's a top 5 scorer. Not a top 5 player.

Yeah he tends to chuck sometimes, number 1 on missed shots of all time.

[Warfan]

Seems kinda nitpicky. Plenty of people struggle at various times.

Kobe has the number 1 or 2 complete scoring skillset of all time.
Number 4 in total points of all time. (on the way up)
2nd highest scoring game of all time at 81 points
35ppg season. Top 3 I believe.

He's a top 5 scorer. Not a top 5 player.

Yeah he tends to chuck sometimes, number 1 on missed shots of all time.

Yes but when it comes to top 5 ever i think you need to be. I agree with you that he has a goat level skillset and im not really against people having him there if people use that as the main criteria. He also has a very impressive resume like you mentioned. But consistent effectiveness is important to me and it seems a lot of people gloss over that.

On any given night he could shoot 19-30 and give you 50+ or he could shoot 9-28 and the Lakers will lose a close game. Like ability, results are important. How important? Im not sure, but it is...

[dreamwarrior]

Kobe misses 15.1 FGA per 100 possessions. Michael Jordan missed 15.4 FGA per 100 possessions. Jordan had a ton of games where he shot 30% as well

[navy]

Yes but when it comes to top 5 ever i think you need to be. I agree with you that he has a goat level skillset and im not really against people having him there if people use that as the main criteria. He also has a very impressive resume like you mentioned. But consistent effectiveness is important to me and it seems a lot of people gloss over that.

On any given night he could shoot 19-30 and give you 50+ or he could shoot 9-28 and the Lakers will lose a close game. Like ability, results are important. How important? Im not sure, but it is...

Meh, Im sure if I checked I could find similar faults with everyone else. Not worried about it.

Kobe misses 15.1 FGA per 100 possessions. Michael Jordan missed 15.4 FGA per 100 possessions. Jordan had a ton of games where he shot 30% as well

Something like this.

[tpols]

lol at lebron being mentioned

dem fast break points and cherrypicked FG doe

[Warfan]

Per 100 poss

MJ
15.3-30.7: .497

Kobe
12.6-27.7: .454

Noticeable difference there, and he scores an extra 4.3ppg (40.4 to 36.1)....


Come postseason it's not even close...

Mj
43.3 ppg - .487

Kobe
34.7 ppg - .448

Much higher volume, more efficient and more consistent...

[navy]

I dont think the intent was to say Kobe is better than Jordan at scoring...