3 on 3: '12 Lebron/'06 Kobe/'14 Durant vs '87 Magic/'91 MJ/'86 Bird

[SHAQisGOAT]

Durant plays almost exclusively off ball....

When were Magic, Bird, and Jordan considered off ball players?

Bird's one of the best off-ball players ever Elite and very smart off-ball movement, elite catch-n-shoot and spotting up, great at getting position down-low and working in the post, knew how to set picks/screens and made terrific passes a split-second after catching the ball.
He was extremely dominant with or without the ball.

Jordan was better off-ball than Kobe or (especially) LeBron.

Magic was pretty good off-ball too, with smart cuts to the basket and even hitting mid-range jumpers off of teammates double-teamed in the post (shot 56% from mid, taking over 50 shots, in the 1984 Finals, for example).

[navy]

Are you serious?

Yeah. If we arent going to consider Durant or Kobe an off ball player, why would we consider Bird and Jordan? Im pretty sure Jordan's usage is higher than all of these guys, just checked, it is. And Bird was definitely a low or high post threat to score or pass the ball. I mean it's 3 on 3.

[Mass Debator]

Kobe > Jordan 1v1
Durant > Bird 1v1
Lebron > Magic 1v1

But I go with Magic Air Bird winning.

[played0ut]

Durant plays almost exclusively off ball....

When were Magic, Bird, and Jordan considered off ball players?

They're fundamentally FLAWLESS team players (even Jordan)-- benefits of years under GOAT college coaches. Old NBA timers talking about it:


@3:55

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhYCyQrfevo

[KG215]

None of Kobe, Durant, or LeBron really play that great off the ball. So I think there would be a problem there about who's getting the most shots (probably would have to be Kobe, but that renders Durant's usefulness moot).

Um, Durant is an excellent off the ball player/scorer. In my opinion, that's one of the things that separates him from almost every other all-time great perimeter scorer and at least puts him in the conversation for GOAT perimeter scorer. He's a very portable player in my opinion in that putting him alongside any all-time great ball dominant wing/guard would be an almost seamless transition.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Yeah. If we arent going to consider Durant or Kobe an off ball player, why would we consider Bird and Jordan? Im pretty sure Jordan's usage is higher than all of these guys, just checked, it is. And Bird was definitely a low or high post threat to score or pass the ball.

Just because he was equally very dominant with the ball, if anything Bird was more of an off-ball player and he even liked to play that way more (said it himself)... I'd say something like 60%-40% (off-ball vs on-ball) in his prime.

You can also check his USG%, only once he reached 30% (only in the regular-season, never in the playoffs) and that was when the team needed him to do a lot of "carrying"... Pretty low for a superstar of his caliber, he's not even top30 all-time, and his highest is not even top150 as far as single-seasons.

"Random" prime Larry Bird game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bN4rDTfYFI

[dubeta]

lebron needs better teammates, too much carrying for one player

[navy]

Just because he was equally very dominant with the ball, if anything Bird was more of an off-ball player and he even liked to play that way more (said it himself)... I'd say something like 60%-40% (off-ball vs on-ball) in his prime.

You can also check his USG%, only once he reached 30% (only in the regular-season, never in the playoffs) and that was when the team needed him to do a lot of "carrying"... Pretty low for a superstar of his caliber, he's not even top30 all-time, and his highest is not even top150 as far as single-seasons.

"Random" prime Larry Bird game:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bN4rDTfYFI

Yeah, but in a game of 3 on 3, who much are these guys going to be useful without the ball?

There is plenty of space for all these players to get solid post postion and iso.

The only ones I could see running around the court to catch and shoot is Durant and Bird in this scenerio. And honestly, I dont see why even they would do it that much due to the lack of paint defense for driving.

[SOD 21]

The Larry Bird/Kevin Durant matchup is intriguing due to how they physically match up with each other. Bird is stronger and likely abuse KD in the post, and Kevin Durant's height and ball handling skills would've abused Bird on the other end.

That would be fun to watch.

[Dragonyeuw]

When were.....Bird, and Jordan considered off ball players?

seriously?

[ArbitraryWater]

Yeah. If we arent going to consider Durant or Kobe an off ball player, why would we consider Bird and Jordan? Im pretty sure Jordan's usage is higher than all of these guys, just checked, it is. And Bird was definitely a low or high post threat to score or pass the ball. I mean it's 3 on 3.

Retarded mofo

I think navy should be a bit deeper in the red

[Milbuck]

They're fundamentally FLAWLESS team players (even Jordan)-- benefits of years under GOAT college coaches. Old NBA timers talking about it:


@3:55

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhYCyQrfevo

Why use T-Mac to prove the point? I saw that episode of Open Court, and it was a bunch of nostalgia-ridden old guys...specifically Steve Kerr...ripping T-Mac for not being as competitive as the greats of their era. Which is completely unfair imo, considering the garbage teams McGrady had to deal with in Orlando and the health problems he had when he finally got help in Houston. So when he was healthy and had help and he came up short, it was basically a legacy death sentence because he never had the tons of chances Bird/Magic/Jordan/Kobe/Lebron and even KD now have had. He definitely underachieved but he was far from a complete example of a weak mind limiting potential. And even aside from that, Kerr himself has stated multiple times that Jordan didn't come into the league as a team-player..it took him years and years to finally trust his teammates and buy into the group rather than the individual.

And it's true the 3 past era guys have all had great coaching and development..but it's not like Lebron, Kobe, and KD are underdeveloped chuckers.. Lebron is naturally a team player, one of the highest-IQ players we've ever seen. KD in this scenario would rarely dominant the ball, considering he's arguably the best off-ball player in the game today and one of the best ever at it. And say what you will about Kobe, but he's shown..specifically in the Olympics..that he can play with other ball-dominant superstars and be an on and off court leader in the process. All three of these guys respect each others' games..there should be zero doubt that they'd adapt.

[played0ut]

Why use T-Mac to prove the point? I saw that episode of Open Court, and it was a bunch of nostalgia-ridden old guys...specifically Steve Kerr...ripping T-Mac for not being as competitive as the greats of their era. Which is completely unfair imo, considering the garbage teams McGrady had to deal with in Orlando and the health problems he had when he finally got help in Houston. So when he was healthy and had help and he came up short, it was basically a legacy death sentence because he never had the tons of chances Bird/Magic/Jordan/Kobe/Lebron and even KD now have had. He definitely underachieved but he was far from a complete example of a weak mind limiting potential. And even aside from that, Kerr himself has stated multiple times that Jordan didn't come into the league as a team-player..it took him years and years to finally trust his teammates and buy into the group rather than the individual.

And it's true the 3 past era guys have all had great coaching and development..but it's not like Lebron, Kobe, and KD are underdeveloped chuckers.. Lebron is naturally a team player, one of the highest-IQ players we've ever seen. KD in this scenario would rarely dominant the ball, considering he's arguably the best off-ball player in the game today and one of the best ever at it. And say what you will about Kobe, but he's shown..specifically in the Olympics..that he can play with other ball-dominant superstars and be an on and off court leader in the process. All three of these guys respect each others' games..there should be zero doubt that they'd adapt.

The point I was trying to make was the advantage of fundamental team play at 3:22 or so. I love T-Mac and he never factored into my argument.

I don't think they're all old-nostalgia heads--consider they're from the 90's but readily admit that the 80's were much better. And they have a point on the fundamentals. How else would an unathletic Bird dominate the league so unequivocally?

On Kobe, yeah I think he's amazing, but in his younger years he had more problems being a team player.

Paraphrased quotes:

>Jerry West-- saddened that Kobe would refuse to defer to Shaq in any way
>Phil Jackson-- he was a loner and wouldn't build rapport with his teammates
>Phil Jackson/Tim Grover/Tex Winters (i'm not sure, one of them): Kobe came straight to the league in high school. He didn't have the benefit of MJ in learning how to play team ball.

And most telling:

>Kobe Bryant himself: I have tunnel vision when I have the ball-- all i see is the basket. I'm willing to pass but I need you guys to YELL at me and YELL that you're open

He learned eventually, but at '06 i'm not quite sure.



On Jordan's 'selfishness' early on: He completely relied on himself and wouldn't trust his teammates-- that's not quite being super-selfish. His turning point:

[quote=Phil Jackson]
In the

[Rose'sACL]

The team with magic loses. You can't hide magic in this matchup because Kobe/lebron/Durant are all top 10 all time offensive type of players.
Magic will be exposed in this matchup.
Kobe and lebron are great defenders in this matchup whereas the other team only has Jordan who is a great defender.

[Collie]

Magic usually had problems with quick point guards (guys like KJ or Isiah back in his day or Rose, Westbrook today). He's not as bad defensively as you might think, especially when matched up against small forwards, who he usually covered on defense. And I know steals aren't a good criteria for defense, but the guy averaged over 2 steals multiple times and was at least a decent post defender.