Is it really Duncan or was it Pop all along?

[Carbine]

The fact the Spurs haven't won a title since Duncan was near his prime is telling.

Having watched him for his whole career, he started to noticably decline from his prime in the '08-'09 season. The results?

1st round exit
2nd round exit
1st round exit
The collapse vs. the Thunder

It took a resurgent year from Duncan (He looked a lot more nimble and spry on his feet vs. the prior years) last year and they got back to the finals.

Timmy isn't a spry as last year, and his defense has suffered a bit (though he's still very good) because of that. However he's still a main cog of the team.

1st in rebound
1st in block
2nd in points
3rd in assists

And he's the same in the playoffs except for assists which he is 4th.

At this point winning another title and him just being one of the main cogs instead of being THE main cog is just gravy. He's 38 years old. Most guy are retired or completely washed up at that point. Duncan deserves a lot of credit for still being a key contributor on a championship contender.

Ultimately it would be a reflection upon how great the 2013-2014 Spurs are as a team if they win a title.

[Take Your Lumps]

Pop disagrees.

[QUOTE]

[tpols]

Duncan won every single one of his titles without another All-NBA teammate. Jordan did that in '91. Hakeem did it in '94. Dirk did it in '11. Duncan did it in '99, '03, '05, and '07.

Manu was a 21/6/5 25 PER player in 2005.. one of the best passing and defending guards in the league.. extremely high bball IQ and great efficiency.

Parker was a beast in 07 and has been for a while now 1a and 1b with duncan for best player on the team with some years him being blatantly better than Duncan.


Best coaching/drafting/scouting/executing team in the league.. they didnt have a single player average over 16 ppg this year and theyre dominating the league. Superstars arent necessary in San Antonio... this isnt Kobe/Shaq or 11 Lebron/Wade.. its 04 pistons right now.

[T_L_P]

The fact the Spurs haven't won a title since Duncan was near his prime is telling.

Having watched him for his whole career, he started to noticably decline from his prime in the '08-'09 season. The results?

1st round exit
2nd round exit
1st round exit
The collapse vs. the Thunder

It took a resurgent year from Duncan (He looked a lot more nimble and spry on his feet vs. the prior years) last year and they got back to the finals.

Timmy isn't a spry as last year, and his defense has suffered a bit (though he's still very good) because of that. However he's still a main cog of the team.

1st in rebound
1st in block
2nd in points
3rd in assists

And he's the same in the playoffs except for assists which he is 4th.

At this point winning another title and him just being one of the main cogs instead of being THE main cog is just gravy. He's 38 years old. Most guy are retired or completely washed up at that point. Duncan deserves a lot of credit for still being a key contributor on a championship contender.

Ultimately it would be a reflection upon how great the 2013-2014 Spurs are as a team if they win a title.

It's also very telling that the Kobe stans point out "60+ wins every season" which isn't even true but blatantly look over the fact that when Duncan under performs, they lose in the Playoffs, early.

If all we're discussing is the regular season and Duncan's decline, what about the '94 Bulls, who still won 50+ games without the best player in the world? Or the Lakers when Kareem retired, who won 63 games.

[T_L_P]

Manu was a 21/6/5 25 PER player in 2005.. one of the best passing and defending guards in the league.. extremely high bball IQ and great efficiency.

Parker was a beast in 07 and has been for a while now 1a and 1b with duncan for best player on the team with some years him being blatantly better than Duncan.


Best coaching/drafting/executing team in the league.. they didnt have a single player average over 16 ppg this year and theyre dominating the league. Superstars arent necessary in San Antonio... this isnt Kobe/Shaq or 11 Lebron/Wade.. its 04 pistons right now.

All of this is very true. I said they looked like superstars in certain years (Manu in '05 especially). But the fact still remains that Duncan never had an All-NBA teammate on his title teams. Most of the greatest players didn't do that once, let alone four times.

And you know as well as I do that Duncan has never got to play with a superstar. Past-his-prime Robinson, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili have been his best players. All legends, all HoFers, all stars (I'm talking '97-'99 Robinson here), but not superstars. Just very well-rounded teams, teams that are historically nobodies when compared to the greats (the star-studded teams).

[tpols]

It's also very telling that the Kobe stans point out "60+ wins every season" which isn't even true but blatantly look over the fact that when Duncan under performs, they lose in the Playoffs, early.

If all we're discussing is the regular season and Duncan's decline, what about the '94 Bulls, who still won 50+ games without the best player in the world? Or the Lakers when Kareem retired, who won 63 games.

Bro.. the spurs have won over 60 games with Duncan averaging 13/9 and while being much better offensively than defensively. The spurs could rattle off 60 in their sleep.. they need Duncan for the playoffs just like Bulls needed MJ. Give it a rest.

[red1]

OP you raise some interesting points. I have now come to the conclusion that duncan>kobe

[T_L_P]

Bro.. the spurs have won over 60 games with Duncan averaging 13/9 and while being much better offensively than defensively. The spurs could rattle off 60 in their sleep.. they need Duncan for the playoffs just like Bulls needed MJ. Give it a rest.

If that is the case, then this thread is worthless.

[tpols]

All of this is very true. I said they looked like superstars in certain years (Manu in '05 especially). But the fact still remains that Duncan never had an All-NBA teammate on his title teams. Most of the greatest players didn't do that once, let alone four times.

And you know as well as I do that Duncan has never got to play with a superstar. Past-his-prime Robinson, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili have been his best players. All legends, all HoFers, all stars (I'm talking '97-'99 Robinson here), but not superstars. Just very well-rounded teams, teams that are historically nobodies when compared to the greats (the star-studded teams).

Manu and parker are just as good as any 'superstar'.. you think if Duncan played with Allen Iverson or Vince Carter or Tmac he would have won more? The only thing theyre would have been more of is isos and inefficiency.

Parker and manu are extremely intelligent team players.. this superstars talk is nonsense when it comes to SA. They would rather have an extremely smart 20 ppg player w/ a well rounded game that spreads the rock than some shot jacking 'superstar' who isos and destroys their team philosophy that has made them so successful.

Which is why they go after euros.. parker, manu, splitter, diaw.. guys who know how to pass, cut, make reads and play fundamental basketball. Stop with this superstar talk.. Pop doesnt want egos of some superstar first option.. which is why duncan is so great, he has the ego of a role player.

[DCL]

there's no doubt that duncan has been impressive throughout his career. he could had retired 3 years ago, and he still would have had a legitimate argument to be ranked as the best PF ever. but i don't think people should discount popovich. the guy is old school, doesn't care who you are, gets in your mug and yells at your ass in front of 20,000 or a couple million if you ever do anything dumb in the game. he keeps everyone in check and instructs at a commanding level. i think ginobili or parker probably would had been ball hog chuckers if they were coached by another dude. but pop got all those guys playing team ball on day 1. and when you got your star players playing team ball, the whole team is going to follow that concept.

[Odinn]

It is gettin' sadder and sadder for Kobe-stans with each futile attempt.

[T_L_P]

there's no doubt that duncan has been impressive throughout his career. he could had retired 3 years ago, and he still would have had a legitimate argument to be ranked as the best PF ever. but i don't think people should discount popovich. the guy is old school, doesn't care who you are, gets in your mug and yells at your ass in front of 20,000 or a couple million if you ever do anything dumb in the game. he keeps everyone in check and instructs at a commanding level. i think ginobili or parker probably would had been ball hog chuckers if they were coached by another dude. but pop got all those guys playing team ball on day 1. and when you got your star players playing team ball, the whole team is going to follow that concept.

I agree, but I think Duncan and Popovich are a couple in that sense.

Duncan chose to be coached, and ultimately treated like any other player. If he really didn't want to be he could have said no, and either Popovich would have had to have changed, or they might have gotten rid of him.

Horry said it best: "When your coach shouts at the star, and the star encourages it, it leaves us no excuse."

Popovich helped implement the Spurs ethos, but Duncan is/was ultimately the one that made it work. Also, Duncan was instrumental in TP's/Manu's development. He gave them a lot of touches early on even when they looked hopeless.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Duncan made popovich not the other way around.
duncan is like a players coach out there. he constantly directs traffic and his unselfishness rubs off on his teammates.
Pop is still an all time great coach,maybe even top 3 all time but if he coached a guy like chuckbe as his best player he wouldnt have been as successful

[SCdac]

The fact the Spurs haven't won a title since Duncan was near his prime is telling.

This.

[no pun intended]

Duncan>Kobe>>>>>>LeBron