If a young Bill, Wilt, KAJ, Shaq, Hakeem, TimD, KG and DRob were time travelled...

[SamuraiSWISH]

No disrespect intended Swish, just some comments:

2) Who other than Cousy (on the merit of his play in the pre-shotclock 60s), Havlicek, and Jones was a legit HOFer on those teams?

None taken, you know you're my dude. Why no comment on Mikan being left out of the Russell, and Wilt debates?

Ummm, you just named pre shotclock the best PG EVER ... and two other seriously dominant all time players with amazing resumes, and games. Hondo being one of the best swingman of all time too, high up in the ranks during his time.

There is no excuse for a guy being 3rd or 4th best, sometimes even 5th best offensively being called a better player than more complete guys.

He needed dominant offensive players for him to play his niche role to perfection to win all these rings in a weak era, with less teams (and just because there was less teams doesn't mean the teams were more stacked)

Rings aren't the exclusive measuring tool for the impact of a player. It's a team achievment, regardless of the influence of a team's best player.

Russell gets so overrated in these arguments it isn't even funny. All evidence points to him being an Alonzo Mourning type. A winner. But as a player? There are better options.

[DonDadda59]

lol @ whenever there is a gap between Duncan and KG

Why? Duncan was possibly one bad coaching decision away from winning ring #5 and finals MVP #4. This season he's on the best team in the league... again, looking to make up for last year.

KG is where exactly right now?

[Micku]

Tough decision. Kareem maybe. His longevity is one of the best ever, probably the best. Depending on what type of team you construct, your team could be a championship contender for a long time.

After Kareem, maybe Shaq or Wilt. Shaq because he'll be too physical against the league's current frontline. And he had the footwork to fake them out. While he could protect the paint very well, I assume the other team will use more picks against them to get open.

Wilt also is up there. Similar to Shaq, he could probably overpower his opponent, but he could shoot fadeaways more often. From what I seen, he doesn't have the footwork as Shaq does, he is better at reading the defense and have more moves.

But in terms of fast pace team, then I would have to choose DRob. I don't think any big man is great at running the floor than DRob, and he is great defensively and his face up game. He'll work wonders for the Clips. As long as he isn't the first option.

[T_L_P]

Robinson was a lot like LeBron in many ways- an absolute genetic freak who for one reason or another tended to shrink when the lights were brightest. People always questioned his mentality, wondered if he was 'too nice', or didn't have that killer instinct. At his peak he was a 30/11/5/2/3 player, MVP winner, DPOY candidate... but then got swept in the first round playing subpar ball. Next season he gets taken to school, absolutely harassed in the WCF by a guy he usually got the best of.

Duncan is as mentally tough as they come. Not loud, flashy, but a stoic killer, silent assassin type. He never put up the monstrous numbers Robinson did in the regular season, but when it was time for the real game to begin Timmy was at the forefront rising above his normal production. Just look at 2003 alone. Robinson in Duncan's place (which would create a weird alternate reality ) absolutely does not win the championship. Coaching can't make up for mental deficiencies.

Duncan played longer, increased his production in the Playoffs, dragged an undermanned cast to the title (in-case people want to use the teammate argument as the end all be all), and, generally speaking, had better production all around.

Just look at '99. Robinson probably had a better Regular Season, adjusted for minutes, but come Playoff time Duncan was clearly superior.

[fpliii]

None taken, you know you're my dude. Why no comment on Mikan being left out of the Russell, and Wilt debates?

Ummm, you just named pre shotclock the best PG EVER ... and two other seriously dominant all time players with amazing resumes, and games. Hondo being one of the best swingman of all time too, high up in the ranks during his time.

There is no excuse for a guy being 3rd or 4th best, sometimes even 5th best offensively being called a better player than more complete guys.

He needed dominant offensive players for him to play his niche role to perfection to win all these rings in a weak era, with less teams (and just because there was less teams doesn't mean the teams were more stacked)

Rings aren't the exclusive measuring tool for the impact of a player. It's a team achievment, regardless of the influence of a team's best player.

Russell gets so overrated in these arguments it isn't even funny. All evidence points to him being an Alonzo Mourning type. A winner. But as a player? There are better options.

1) I did have a comment, see (3) in my last response.
2) As I posted in CavsFTW's thread, those Celtics teams were mediocre to poor offensively. We can't call them dominant if they played on such bad offenses.
3) Problem with that is again, it brings in the Pippen-Barkley (or even Pippen-Barkley) argument. There's no bonus for being balanced offensively and defensively (don't get me wrong though, Russell was not a scorer by any means, but he did have great scoring games in clinching games when needed).
4) Agree to disagree, at least in the mid-late 60s when the league was integrated.
5) I understand that, but I haven't mentioned the number of rings once my good man. It's just the degree to which he impacted those teams on defense.

[dunksby]

Jabbar would be the only player in the NBA without a twitter handle.

Who the **** have I been following for the past year then? @KAJ33
Joking aside, I know where you are coming from, I don't see him talking smack on twitter either.

[SamuraiSWISH]

It's just the degree to which he impacted those teams on defense.

Then Ben Wallace, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo needs to be in conversation for best players of all-time. I don't even see the validity for ranking Russell over Duncan. Putting the ball in the hole is still the name of the game, it has more value than defense, or rebounding. The game isn't played exclusively on one end of the floor.

[D-FENS]

I'm taking Hakeem. Just too much overall talent.
2nd pick Duncan
3rd KAJ
4th Wilt


SHaq = missed free throws, injuries, personality and weight issues mitigate his strengths

D-Rob and KG had no post game

Russell is too small

Where da **** is Ewing?

[T_L_P]

Jabbar would be the only player in the NBA without a twitter handle.

I think you mean Duncan.

[Rocketswin2013]

Then Ben Wallace, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo needs to be in conversation for best players of all-time. I don't even see the validity for ranking Russell over Duncan. Putting the ball in the hole is still the name of the game, it has more value than defense, or rebounding. The game isn't played exclusively on one end of the floor.

Nah, Russell wouldn't completely wreck the league. Put him on the Sixers and they'd be top ten defensively. GOAT, no question.

[Rocketswin2013]

I don't see Russell averaging less than 25 rebounds and 8 blocks in this era. Nobody could handle his athleticism in the paint today. Jumps to high, his box outs too strong.

[fpliii]

Then Ben Wallace, Alonzo Mourning, Dikembe Mutombo needs to be in conversation for best players of all-time. I don't even see the validity for ranking Russell over Duncan. Putting the ball in the hole is still the name of the game, it has more value than defense, or rebounding. The game isn't played exclusively on one end of the floor.

Magic? Barkley? Dirk? Nash?

EDIT: Sorry, just reread. Disagree with the bolded.

[fpliii]

I don't see Russell averaging less than 25 rebounds and 8 blocks in this era. Nobody could handle his athleticism in the paint today. Jumps to high, his box outs too strong.

Nah. Probably 10/16/5/5/2.

[RichieW]

Im taking Kareem and Timmy as #1 and #2 for their work ethic and longevity. Shaq and Wilt at #3 and #4 because of their incredible physical profile and their peak ability. The Hakeem, Russell, Garnett and Robinson.

Shaq had possibly the greatest peak of all time, but he liked to play the clown. I'd rather start my franchise with a player like Duncan who will set a more mature tone.

[Micku]

Magic? Barkley? Dirk? Nash?

I think it's a matter of what you consider to be more important between offense or defense in a single player.

Like if you would rather have Barkley or a Dennis Rodman or something similar.