If Kobe is the Closest Thing Since Jordan...

[turnaroundJ]

Huge Kobe fan here, grew up watching the guy. I fell in love with his game. He's so ****ing skilled, and I will always be a fan of his.

That being said, he's up there with Lebron as one of the most deeply flawed all-time greats in sports history - just in the totally opposite way.

His basketball IQ is absurdly high, yet he uses it in the wrong way so often that people just blatantly disregard it. And by basketball IQ, I'm talking about overall knowledge of the game, strategically, historically, skill-wise, mentally, and physically. I don't consider his questionable on-court decisions a product of low BBIQ, but rather his personality. If we disregard things like people-friendliness and cooperation and focus strictly on basketball intelligence, Kobe is one of those guys I could see being fully capable of coaching after his career is over. I don't think he'll do it, but I think his knowledge makes him capable of it. But like I said, he does borderline retarded shit on the court. I love his, dare I say it, his ALPHA personality. But there is no excuse for him taking 30-foot fadeaway 3's with a guy draped all over him when there are 2-3 respectable shooters wide open next to him. No excuse. He makes a good amount of them and he's earned his place as one of the great clutch performers of all time, but you can't help but feel like he should've acted more according to his intelligence than his personality.

His personality off the court at times is disappointing to say the least. I love his insane work ethic, and all that. But even Jordan knew how to be cool with everyone when he needed to. Jordan oftentimes seemed like he was a sociopath, but at least he tried to hide it by being sociable. Kobe often seems very rigid, very formulaic in his actions, speech, and personality. He's intelligent as hell (off the court this time, not BBIQ), but you can't help but feel like at times he just tries too hard. He'll sound like a freakin basketball professor one moment, then he'll sound like he's trash talking a scrub in Rucker park right after.

And then we get to the numbers. Statistically, Kobe is one of the more underwhelming all-time greats. I'm not talking his game, his skills, his impact, or anything like that. But just his career numbers, as they appear on paper. I hate cherry picking numbers and being one of those guys who says "b-b-b-but take out his first 2 seasons and he has great numbers!", but you kinda have to to see just how great he was as a player. 27/6/5 on 46/33/84 shooting over 15 seasons is pretty freaking good - that's his career minus his first 2 seasons. But sadly, that's not how careers are judged. His career statistically is marred by bad shooting nights, selfishness-indicative low assist totals, etc. He really is the epitome of unpredictability in basketball. He could go 6-25 one night, then go off for 60 the next night on fantastic efficiency. But in the basketball society we live in, his haters are never gonna look at those great games. They'll look at the overall season average of 45% and label him an Iverson, Starbury, or Stevie Franchise with a huge green light. They'll completely forget the 9 straight games of 40+ points. The 4 straight games of 50+ points. The 81 point game. Stuff like that. They'll focus on his failures, much like Lebron's haters focus on his.

And lastly, it absolutely KILLS Kobe's place in the all-time discussion that he's without a shadow of a doubt, a lesser version of Jordan. A phenomenal, truly incredible player in his own right, but a lesser version nonetheless.

Those are just a few of the reasons why I think Kobe's career hasn't been considered top 5 by most. Obviously I ignored stuff like the Colorado case, the Shaq-Kobe feud, all that crap.

It saddens me to know that he could've been top 5 had a few things gone his way. Who knows how his career would've played out if he had better teammates during his peak from 2005-07? He could certainly have won more championships and MVPS, stuff like that. But that didn't happen, and his career is what it has been. Amazing, but flawed.

Personally I have Kobe in my 6-8 range as well.

What really kills is when he has those 30-40 point, 8+ assist performances every once in a while, playing within the offense while still being aggressive, and completely controlling the game. Both on offense and defense.

The lost potential wasn't just from him being on scrub teams, but also from his own mind.

[FKAri]

Huh? He's easily in almost everyone's top ten all-time. Just because he's poor man's Jordan doesn't mean he wasn't great. He's just not AS great as the greatest ever. No shame in that.

Are you the guy that defended Jordan's cawk size in that other thread?

[Dragonyeuw]

I honestly can't believe in that. Penny Hardaway was an above average guard who played with Shaq. They couldn't get a chip while they were in Orlando.

They ran into the 72 win Bulls squad, then Shaq left and Penny got injured. I can't see that Magic team 'not' winning a title once the Bulls got too old, and neither of the above situations occurred.

[aj1987]

They weren't better by a whole lot, the Magic were incredibly balanced all around. The Lakers teams were much better than the 06 Heat though.

Those Laker teams had PRIME Shaq. '06 Shaq averaged 14/10 in the Finals (35/15/4 over the 3peat with the Lakers). Much better is an understatement.

[Quickening]

Huge Kobe fan here, grew up watching the guy. I fell in love with his game. He's so ****ing skilled, and I will always be a fan of his.

That being said, he's up there with Lebron as one of the most deeply flawed all-time greats in sports history - just in the totally opposite way.

His basketball IQ is absurdly high, yet he uses it in the wrong way so often that people just blatantly disregard it. And by basketball IQ, I'm talking about overall knowledge of the game, strategically, historically, skill-wise, mentally, and physically. I don't consider his questionable on-court decisions a product of low BBIQ, but rather his personality. If we disregard things like people-friendliness and cooperation and focus strictly on basketball intelligence, Kobe is one of those guys I could see being fully capable of coaching after his career is over. I don't think he'll do it, but I think his knowledge makes him capable of it. But like I said, he does borderline retarded shit on the court. I love his, dare I say it, his ALPHA personality. But there is no excuse for him taking 30-foot fadeaway 3's with a guy draped all over him when there are 2-3 respectable shooters wide open next to him. No excuse. He makes a good amount of them and he's earned his place as one of the great clutch performers of all time, but you can't help but feel like he should've acted more according to his intelligence than his personality.

His personality off the court at times is disappointing to say the least. I love his insane work ethic, and all that. But even Jordan knew how to be cool with everyone when he needed to. Jordan oftentimes seemed like he was a sociopath, but at least he tried to hide it by being sociable. Kobe often seems very rigid, very formulaic in his actions, speech, and personality. He's intelligent as hell (off the court this time, not BBIQ), but you can't help but feel like at times he just tries too hard. He'll sound like a freakin basketball professor one moment, then he'll sound like he's trash talking a scrub in Rucker park right after.

And then we get to the numbers. Statistically, Kobe is one of the more underwhelming all-time greats. I'm not talking his game, his skills, his impact, or anything like that. But just his career numbers, as they appear on paper. I hate cherry picking numbers and being one of those guys who says "b-b-b-but take out his first 2 seasons and he has great numbers!", but you kinda have to to see just how great he was as a player. 27/6/5 on 46/33/84 shooting over 15 seasons is pretty freaking good - that's his career minus his first 2 seasons. But sadly, that's not how careers are judged. His career statistically is marred by bad shooting nights, selfishness-indicative low assist totals, etc. He really is the epitome of unpredictability in basketball. He could go 6-25 one night, then go off for 60 the next night on fantastic efficiency. But in the basketball society we live in, his haters are never gonna look at those great games. They'll look at the overall season average of 45% and label him an Iverson, Starbury, or Stevie Franchise with a huge green light. They'll completely forget the 9 straight games of 40+ points. The 4 straight games of 50+ points. The 81 point game. Stuff like that. They'll focus on his failures, much like Lebron's haters focus on his.

And lastly, it absolutely KILLS Kobe's place in the all-time discussion that he's without a shadow of a doubt, a lesser version of Jordan. A phenomenal, truly incredible player in his own right, but a lesser version nonetheless.

Those are just a few of the reasons why I think Kobe's career hasn't been considered top 5 by most. Obviously I ignored stuff like the Colorado case, the Shaq-Kobe feud, all that crap.

It saddens me to know that he could've been top 5 had a few things gone his way. Who knows how his career would've played out if he had better teammates during his peak from 2005-07? He could certainly have won more championships and MVPS, stuff like that. But that didn't happen, and his career is what it has been. Amazing, but flawed.

Personally I have Kobe in my 6-8 range as well.

WTF, so you're saying we should just focus on the nights that him chucking comes off, and ignores the nights where it fails... and therefore rank him higher on this basis? Seems fair to all the other players who are rank on their whole career, not just cherry picked highlights.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Because people don't rank players based on how close they are to Jordan.

Is Jordan anything like the GOAT Kareem?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

WTF, so you're saying we should just focus on the nights that him chucking comes off, and ignores the nights where it fails... and therefore rank him higher on this basis? Seems fair to all the other players who are rank on their whole career, not just cherry picked highlights.

Where do you clowns get the idea that Kobe's accolades don't stack up against other legends? Rings? All NBA awards? All defensive team awards? All stars?

[Quickening]

Where do you clowns get the idea that Kobe's accolades don't stack up against other legends? Rings? All NBA awards? All defensive team awards? All stars?

Has no relevance to my post, but ok

[LJJ]

Kobe is a top 5 player since Jordan. Probably fourth behind Shaq, Duncan and LeBron.

[stanlove1111]

, But there is no excuse for him taking 30-foot fadeaway 3's with a guy draped all over him when there are 2-3 respectable shooters wide open next to him. No excuse. He makes a good amount of them and he's earned his place as one of the great clutch performers of all time,.

How can anyone say that Kobe is a great clutch performer? That is amazing to me.

Here is how it works with Kobe in the clutch. All Kobe cares about is Kobe. He was always desperate to try to build his legacy by hitting big shots, he realized early on that you can miss the great majority of big shots but as long as you hit one once in a while some people will only remember the ones that you hit. Proof right here in your post. You are actually calling Kobe one of the greatest clutch performers ever despite all of this.


This to Kobe was much more important then his team winning or losing. But he only worried about legacy. That's all the guy is about. Great clutch players like Jordan, Bird, and Magic will do whats best for heir team. They all hit many big shots plus passed to wide open teammates for easy shots when they could. They actually carried about winning.

Believe me as a Laker hater I am always glad in crunch time when Kobe has the ball. When I see that I know the other team probably just won.

As a Bull hater I always hated to see as actually clutch player like Jordan with the ball in his hands at crunch time same with Magic and guys who are actually clutch.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

How can anyone say that Kobe is a great clutch performer? That is amazing to me.

Here is how it works with Kobe in the clutch. All Kobe cares about is Kobe. He was always desperate to try to build his legacy by hitting big shots, he realized early on that you can miss the great majority of big shots but as long as you hit one once in a while some people will only remember the ones that you hit. Proof right here in your post. You are actually calling Kobe one of the greatest clutch performers ever despite all of this.


This to Kobe was much more important then his team winning or losing. But he only worried about legacy. That's all the guy is about. Great clutch players like Jordan, Bird, and Magic will do whats best for heir team. They all hit many big shots plus passed to wide open teammates for easy shots when they could. They actually carried about winning.

Believe me as a Laker hater I am always glad in crunch time when Kobe has the ball. When I see that I know the other team probably just won.

As a Bull hater I always hated to see as actually clutch player like Jordan with the ball in his hands at crunch time same with Magic and guys who are actually clutch.

That's because when Kobe passes to open teammates it's considered Fisher/Horry/Arrest "bailing" him out.

[Psileas]

"Closest thing since Jordan" usually implies that this specific player has to have at least some qualities and style of play that resemble Jordan's, while playing at a reasonably high level.
When someone asks me who's the closest one to Jordan since Jordan, I ask them to make clear what they mean. If we're talking about overall greatness or dominance, there's no reason to imply that this player has to play like Jordan at all - on the contrary, this is usually a style of play that doesn't favor the possibility of being the best in the league, unlike the play of someone like Shaq or Duncan (the real "closest since Jordan" for me - along with prime LeBron).

[Marlo_Stanfield]

Yes, poor man's cover band Jordan.

30 / 5 / 5 v.s. 25 / 5 / 5
6x rings v.s. 5x rings
5x MVPs v.s. MVP
6x FMVP v.s. 2x FMVP
10 scoring titles v.s. 2 scoring titles
DPOY

[sammichoffate]

"Closest thing since Jordan" usually implies that this specific player has to have at least some qualities and style of play that resemble Jordan's, while playing at a reasonably high level.
When someone asks me who's the closest one to Jordan since Jordan, I ask them to make clear what they mean. If we're talking about overall greatness or dominance, there's no reason to imply that this player has to play like Jordan at all - on the contrary, this is usually a style of play that doesn't favor the possibility of being the best in the league, unlike the play of someone like Shaq or Duncan (the real "closest since Jordan" for me - along with prime LeBron).

Best post since Millbuck's. I can see where people are coming from if they have that perspective in mind.

[HoopsFanNumero1]

Kobe's the closest replica to Jordan but by no mean is he the closest in impact or greatness.