If Kobe is the Closest Thing Since Jordan...

[sammichoffate]

Cool you're entitled to your opinion. I disagree though.

He values big men more if i'm not mistaken, that's a perfectly legitimate point of view

[JohnFreeman]

you know you're great when you are the "closest thing" since jordan. So many great NBA players in the past, yet Kobe is the closest to Jordan and you still try to discredit him?

He isn't the closest thing to the greatness of Jordan, they just have similar games.

[Cold soul]

He values big men more if i'm not mistaken, that's a perfectly legitimate point of view

Nothing wrong with that. I value bigs more too due to impacting the game more often than guards for the most part.

[Fawker]

Before Lebron and Bosh The Heat finished with 30 wins. That is Wades pull.

[sammichoffate]

I'm still having trouble with resolving the "Shaq Issue". Even if Shaq was the leading scorer for those first 3 chips, Kobe was just as important in winning them. Doesn't that show how you need quality teammates to win chips?

[Milbuck]

Huge Kobe fan here, grew up watching the guy. I fell in love with his game. He's so ****ing skilled, and I will always be a fan of his.

That being said, he's up there with Lebron as one of the most deeply flawed all-time greats in sports history - just in the totally opposite way.

His basketball IQ is absurdly high, yet he uses it in the wrong way so often that people just blatantly disregard it. And by basketball IQ, I'm talking about overall knowledge of the game, strategically, historically, skill-wise, mentally, and physically. I don't consider his questionable on-court decisions a product of low BBIQ, but rather his personality. If we disregard things like people-friendliness and cooperation and focus strictly on basketball intelligence, Kobe is one of those guys I could see being fully capable of coaching after his career is over. I don't think he'll do it, but I think his knowledge makes him capable of it. But like I said, he does borderline retarded shit on the court. I love his, dare I say it, his ALPHA personality. But there is no excuse for him taking 30-foot fadeaway 3's with a guy draped all over him when there are 2-3 respectable shooters wide open next to him. No excuse. He makes a good amount of them and he's earned his place as one of the great clutch performers of all time, but you can't help but feel like he should've acted more according to his intelligence than his personality.

His personality off the court at times is disappointing to say the least. I love his insane work ethic, and all that. But even Jordan knew how to be cool with everyone when he needed to. Jordan oftentimes seemed like he was a sociopath, but at least he tried to hide it by being sociable. Kobe often seems very rigid, very formulaic in his actions, speech, and personality. He's intelligent as hell (off the court this time, not BBIQ), but you can't help but feel like at times he just tries too hard. He'll sound like a freakin basketball professor one moment, then he'll sound like he's trash talking a scrub in Rucker park right after.

And then we get to the numbers. Statistically, Kobe is one of the more underwhelming all-time greats. I'm not talking his game, his skills, his impact, or anything like that. But just his career numbers, as they appear on paper. I hate cherry picking numbers and being one of those guys who says "b-b-b-but take out his first 2 seasons and he has great numbers!", but you kinda have to to see just how great he was as a player. 27/6/5 on 46/33/84 shooting over 15 seasons is pretty freaking good - that's his career minus his first 2 seasons. But sadly, that's not how careers are judged. His career statistically is marred by bad shooting nights, selfishness-indicative low assist totals, etc. He really is the epitome of unpredictability in basketball. He could go 6-25 one night, then go off for 60 the next night on fantastic efficiency. But in the basketball society we live in, his haters are never gonna look at those great games. They'll look at the overall season average of 45% and label him an Iverson, Starbury, or Stevie Franchise with a huge green light. They'll completely forget the 9 straight games of 40+ points. The 4 straight games of 50+ points. The 81 point game. Stuff like that. They'll focus on his failures, much like Lebron's haters focus on his.

And lastly, it absolutely KILLS Kobe's place in the all-time discussion that he's without a shadow of a doubt, a lesser version of Jordan. A phenomenal, truly incredible player in his own right, but a lesser version nonetheless.

Those are just a few of the reasons why I think Kobe's career hasn't been considered top 5 by most. Obviously I ignored stuff like the Colorado case, the Shaq-Kobe feud, all that crap.

It saddens me to know that he could've been top 5 had a few things gone his way. Who knows how his career would've played out if he had better teammates during his peak from 2005-07? He could certainly have won more championships and MVPS, stuff like that. But that didn't happen, and his career is what it has been. Amazing, but flawed.

Personally I have Kobe in my 6-8 range as well.

[JohnFreeman]

I'm still having trouble with resolving the "Shaq Issue". Even if Shaq was the leading scorer for those first 3 chips, Kobe was just as important in winning them. Doesn't that show how you need quality teammates to win chips?

Kobe could be replaced with any good guard

[sammichoffate]

Huge Kobe fan here, grew up watching the guy. I fell in love with his game. He's so ****ing skilled, and I will always be a fan of his.

That being said, he's up there with Lebron as one of the most deeply flawed all-time greats in sports history - just in the totally opposite way.

His basketball IQ is absurdly high, yet he uses it in the wrong way so often that people just blatantly disregard it. And by basketball IQ, I'm talking about overall knowledge of the game, strategically, historically, skill-wise, mentally, and physically. I don't consider his questionable on-court decisions a product of low BBIQ, but rather his personality. If we disregard things like people-friendliness and cooperation and focus strictly on basketball intelligence, Kobe is one of those guys I could see being fully capable of coaching after his career is over. I don't think he'll do it, but I think his knowledge makes him capable of it. But like I said, he does borderline retarded shit on the court. I love his, dare I say it, his ALPHA personality. But there is no excuse for him taking 30-foot fadeaway 3's with a guy draped all over him when there are 2-3 respectable shooters wide open next to him. No excuse. He makes a good amount of them and he's earned his place as one of the great clutch performers of all time, but you can't help but feel like he should've acted more according to his intelligence than his personality.

His personality off the court at times is disappointing to say the least. I love his insane work ethic, and all that. But even Jordan knew how to be cool with everyone when he needed to. Jordan oftentimes seemed like he was a sociopath, but at least he tried to hide it by being sociable. Kobe often seems very rigid, very formulaic in his actions, speech, and personality. He's intelligent as hell (off the court this time, not BBIQ), but you can't help but feel like at times he just tries too hard. He'll sound like a freakin basketball professor one moment, then he'll sound like he's trash talking a scrub in Rucker park right after.

And then we get to the numbers. Statistically, Kobe is one of the more underwhelming all-time greats. I'm not talking his game, his skills, his impact, or anything like that. But just his career numbers, as they appear on paper. I hate cherry picking numbers and being one of those guys who says "b-b-b-but take out his first 2 seasons and he has great numbers!", but you kinda have to to see just how great he was as a player. 27/6/5 on 46/33/84 shooting over 15 seasons is pretty freaking good - that's his career minus his first 2 seasons. But sadly, that's not how careers are judged. His career statistically is marred by bad shooting nights, selfishness-indicative low assist totals, etc. He really is the epitome of unpredictability in basketball. He could go 6-25 one night, then go off for 60 the next night on fantastic efficiency. But in the basketball society we live in, his haters are never gonna look at those great games. They'll look at the overall season average of 45% and label him an Iverson, Starbury, or Stevie Franchise with a huge green light. They'll completely forget the 9 straight games of 40+ points. The 4 straight games of 50+ points. The 81 point game. Stuff like that. They'll focus on his failures, much like Lebron's haters focus on his.

And lastly, it absolutely KILLS Kobe's place in the all-time discussion that he's without a shadow of a doubt, a lesser version of Jordan. A phenomenal, truly incredible player in his own right, but a lesser version nonetheless.

Those are just a few of the reasons why I think Kobe's career hasn't been considered top 5 by most. Obviously I ignored stuff like the Colorado case, the Shaq-Kobe feud, all that crap.

It saddens me to know that he could've been top 5 had a few things gone his way. Who knows how his career would've played out if he had better teammates during his peak from 2005-07? He could certainly have won more championships and MVPS, stuff like that. But that didn't happen, and his career is what it has been. Amazing, but flawed.

Personally I have Kobe in my 6-8 range as well.

This was written beautifully and is the most eloquent explanation/argument I have read since I joined. I agree with everything, things like inconsistency and circumstance keep him from being top 2 or even top 3. My only two questions left are his comparisons with those in the 2-5 range and the "Shaq Issue". Does everyone in the top 2-5 have a strong case for their ranking above him?

[sammichoffate]

Kobe could be replaced with any good guard

I honestly can't believe in that. Penny Hardaway was an above average guard who played with Shaq. They couldn't get a chip while they were in Orlando. Dwyane Wade in 06 was not just "any good guard" either.

[JohnFreeman]

I honestly can't believe in that. Penny Hardaway was an above average guard who played with Shaq. They couldn't get a chip while they were in Orlando. Dwyane Wade in 06 was not just "any good guard" either.

Those Laker teams were both better then Magic and Heat

[SamuraiSWISH]

Huge Kobe fan here, grew up watching the guy. I fell in love with his game. He's so ****ing skilled, and I will always be a fan of his.

That being said, he's up there with Lebron as one of the most deeply flawed all-time greats in sports history - just in the totally opposite way.

His basketball IQ is absurdly high, yet he uses it in the wrong way so often that people just blatantly disregard it. And by basketball IQ, I'm talking about overall knowledge of the game, strategically, historically, skill-wise, mentally, and physically. I don't consider his questionable on-court decisions a product of low BBIQ, but rather his personality. If we disregard things like people-friendliness and cooperation and focus strictly on basketball intelligence, Kobe is one of those guys I could see being fully capable of coaching after his career is over. I don't think he'll do it, but I think his knowledge makes him capable of it. But like I said, he does borderline retarded shit on the court. I love his, dare I say it, his ALPHA personality. But there is no excuse for him taking 30-foot fadeaway 3's with a guy draped all over him when there are 2-3 respectable shooters wide open next to him. No excuse. He makes a good amount of them and he's earned his place as one of the great clutch performers of all time, but you can't help but feel like he should've acted more according to his intelligence than his personality.

His personality off the court at times is disappointing to say the least. I love his insane work ethic, and all that. But even Jordan knew how to be cool with everyone when he needed to. Jordan oftentimes seemed like he was a sociopath, but at least he tried to hide it by being sociable. Kobe often seems very rigid, very formulaic in his actions, speech, and personality. He's intelligent as hell (off the court this time, not BBIQ), but you can't help but feel like at times he just tries too hard. He'll sound like a freakin basketball professor one moment, then he'll sound like he's trash talking a scrub in Rucker park right after.

And then we get to the numbers. Statistically, Kobe is one of the more underwhelming all-time greats. I'm not talking his game, his skills, his impact, or anything like that. But just his career numbers, as they appear on paper. I hate cherry picking numbers and being one of those guys who says "b-b-b-but take out his first 2 seasons and he has great numbers!", but you kinda have to to see just how great he was as a player. 27/6/5 on 46/33/84 shooting over 15 seasons is pretty freaking good - that's his career minus his first 2 seasons. But sadly, that's not how careers are judged. His career statistically is marred by bad shooting nights, selfishness-indicative low assist totals, etc. He really is the epitome of unpredictability in basketball. He could go 6-25 one night, then go off for 60 the next night on fantastic efficiency. But in the basketball society we live in, his haters are never gonna look at those great games. They'll look at the overall season average of 45% and label him an Iverson, Starbury, or Stevie Franchise with a huge green light. They'll completely forget the 9 straight games of 40+ points. The 4 straight games of 50+ points. The 81 point game. Stuff like that. They'll focus on his failures, much like Lebron's haters focus on his.

And lastly, it absolutely KILLS Kobe's place in the all-time discussion that he's without a shadow of a doubt, a lesser version of Jordan. A phenomenal, truly incredible player in his own right, but a lesser version nonetheless.

Those are just a few of the reasons why I think Kobe's career hasn't been considered top 5 by most. Obviously I ignored stuff like the Colorado case, the Shaq-Kobe feud, all that crap.

It saddens me to know that he could've been top 5 had a few things gone his way. Who knows how his career would've played out if he had better teammates during his peak from 2005-07? He could certainly have won more championships and MVPS, stuff like that. But that didn't happen, and his career is what it has been. Amazing, but flawed.

Personally I have Kobe in my 6-8 range as well.

[sammichoffate]

Those Laker teams were both better then Magic and Heat

They weren't better by a whole lot, the Magic were incredibly balanced all around. The Lakers teams were much better than the 06 Heat though.

[Anaximandro1]

OP

- Jordan and Kobe are neck and neck in terms of technical skills.

- Kobe and Wade are neck and neck in terms of production (the only thing that matters)

- Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem is the closest thing to Jordan in terms of production (and MVPs / rings as #1)

[Simple Jack]

They weren't better by a whole lot, the Magic were incredibly balanced all around. The Lakers teams were much better than the 06 Heat though.

Phil Jackson is a factor to consider as well. Also just shit going right (which is often needed to win a ring...i.e Fisher, Horry, Ray Allen, etc.)

[T_L_P]

Chris Mullin was the closest thing to Larry Bird, some might say.

Does that mean Mullin should be top 5?