Peak T-Mac vs Peak Bird

[Clyde]

I agree. Zero athleticism. His vision and passing is greatly exaggerated and overrated, too. He did two handed passes that you'd see a middle school girl do in co-ed gym. Who is he going to go up against? Monsters like Klay Thompson instead of shitty Dominique Wilkins. Too real out here now.

He can maybe have a stretch of 9 games once in his career doing 18/10/2. That's about it.

adding you to the ignore as you seem incompetent

[moe94]

If you're still unsure, I think Shaq would be a poor man's Al Jefferson today. 2000 was 30 years ago. Game changed too much.

But for real, Klay is a monster but Nique is shit and yet you think that's not sarcastic at all? At what point in retardation do you sit back and think "no one thinks this?"

[SHAQisGOAT]

I actually think a conversation could be had. I'm not saying peak Tmac > peak Bird, but there are things to consider.

Bird at his peak was an amazing scorer and passer, but the pace and league averages in ppg, rpg, apg and fg% were inflated. Also, Bird just had a more competent team around him which made it easier to rack up assists and points at a higher

This shit again?

Bird played at like 10% higher pace, not considerable enough to say things like that, especially for a superstar like him. So he wouldn't be able to take his 20 shots, nowadays? Shit. He'd even be getting much more superstar treatment and ticky-tack calls. 6'6.5" Shawn Marion has about the same TRB% has Bird for his career, and he averages 9.0 rpg in 35 min, at his best getting close to 12 boards per game.. and that's just one example out of numerous. Bird was avering over 7 apg while not even being the main ball-handler and being less ball-dominant than most superstars, in terms of time to do it.
At "today's" pace he averaged about the same he was putting up during those years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po1M--HaINA
In 1992, Celtics' average pace was 95.8, and as a shell, at 35 years old with career-ending injuries, Bird averaged, in less than 37 min, 20.2/9.6/6.8/0.9/0.7 on .547 TS% (in a time where teams/players shot less 3's and players/stars didn't get the same type of calls).
I don't get the inflated notion, he was playing during that time and those were the averages, that's why you gotta compare his numbers to the rest of the league, to his peers. DRtg and eFG% are about the same also. Plus there's too much subjectivity and too much nuances when looking at things from that perspective of 'well look at the league averages'.

Look at the numbers all you want and speculate about the assists or points (Bird averaged the same or more assists as the team got worse, or even more ppg on better efficiency) but Larry turned the Celtics from 2nd worst record to the best record and the ECF, as a rookie, with basically the same roster. In his 2nd year - the major addition was Parish and they traded Cowens - Bird lead them to a title. In arguably the GOAT era, in arguably the GOAT conference, in 4 years he won 3 straight MVP's, 2 FMVP's, went to 4 straight Finals and was injured in the 1985 post-season plus didn't have enough to go all the way in 1987. In the 1984 Playoffs, his teammates were majorly underperforming and he "took" them to a championship while leading them in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT%, going against some really stacked teams. With great teammates in 1986, he did more than what it was expected, they pretty much raped a great league. And those are just some examples.
Again, T-Mac was great, amazing to watch and gets forgotten sometimes but he was really not on the same level as prime/peak Bird, and you really can't look at "just" the numbers either.

[SHAQisGOAT]

If you're still unsure, I think Shaq would be a poor man's Al Jefferson today. 2000 was 30 years ago. Game changed too much.

GTFOH my *****



[COLOR="White"]at least add some white text, some people may miss the sarcasm[/COLOR]

[ArbitraryWater]

If you're still unsure, I think Shaq would be a poor man's Al Jefferson today. 2000 was 30 years ago. Game changed too much.

But for real, Klay is a monster but Nique is shit and yet you think that's not sarcastic at all? At what point in retardation do you sit back and think "no one thinks this?"

It still amazes me how people, all over the damn internet, cant feel the sarcasm infront of them... in your case, you do this a lot though, maybe a bit too much lol

[bizil]

To be honest with you, this is actually A LOT CLOSER than many think. T-Mac at his peak value is a top 5 SG of all time along with MJ, Kobe, West, and Wade. That's how great he was. He was great at everything for a SG in terms of scoring, passing, and boards. Mac was also very versatile and could play PG, SG, and SF. His scoring skillset is an all time great caliber one as well

But with that said, I will lean to Bird. The reason why is because of Bird's dominance as a rebounder with 10 a game for his career. And with is epic passing as well, it made him a true triple double threat. Plus Bird can swing to the PF spot in addition to his SF spot. If TMac was a dominant defender like a MJ, Kobe, or Lebron, I would likely take him over Bird. Alpha dog scorers who are dominant, versatile defenders are a rare commodity. I would take Bird and Magic over bascially any perimeter players EVER except for an MJ, Bron, or Kobe.

[SHAQisGOAT]

To be honest with you, this is actually A LOT CLOSER than many think. T-Mac at his peak value is a top 5 SG of all time along with MJ, Kobe, West, and Wade. That's how great he was. He was great at everything for a SG in terms of scoring, passing, and boards. Mac was also very versatile and could play PG, SG, and SF. His scoring skillset is an all time great caliber one as well

But with that said, I will lean to Bird. The reason why is because of Bird's dominance as a rebounder with 10 a game for his career. And with is epic passing as well, it made him a true triple double threat. Plus Bird can swing to the PF spot in addition to his SF spot. If TMac was a dominant defender like a MJ, Kobe, or Lebron, I would likely take him over Bird. Alpha dog scorers who are dominant, versatile defenders are a rare commodity. I would take Bird and Magic over bascially any perimeter players EVER except for an MJ, Bron, or Kobe.

I would say T-Mac was more of a SF, point-forward, but subjective and to each his own. And even at SG, I don't know about top5, it's definitely arguable though but don't forget about Drexler or even Gervin, and what about AI? He's more of a SG to me.

Anyways, I'll say it again, not that close even though it's not really far, when you consider everything.

Bird's one of the greatest team defenders ever, underrated impact, his team's defense was considerably better when he was on the court (before major injuries). That means a lot.

[STATUTORY]

Tmac would have put up exponentially better stats in the 80s than he did in the early 2000s, FACT

[bizil]

I would say T-Mac was more of a SF, point-forward, but subjective and to each his own. And even at SG, I don't know about top5, it's definitely arguable though but don't forget about Drexler or even Gervin, and what about AI? He's more of a SG to me.

Anyways, I'll say it again, not that close even though it's not really far, when you consider everything.

Bird's one of the greatest team defenders ever, underrated impact, his team's defense was considerably better when he was on the court (before major injuries). That means a lot.

If u look at T-Mac's primary position most of his great years in the L, it was at SG:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...mcgratr01.html

Secondly, his peak value in my book is top 5 peak value at SG. I certainly didn't forget about AI, Gervin, and Drexler. T-Mac was a better all around player than Gervin while on his level as a scorer. I like T-Mac's size and versatility over AI. While being just as good of a scorer. Drexler however is a close call (even though they are all close calls), but I prefer T-Mac's total scoring skillset.

And ya Bird was a great team defender, but he wasn't a guy u could put on an island to limit guys or make them less efficient. MJ, Kobe, Cooper, Rodman, Hondo, Bobby Jones, Pippen, and Lebron can do that AND at 3-4 different positions. That's a different level of defense, even though at team defense, Bird was a great defender. It's like a corner in the NFL. Some guys may be great in a zone or system. But are they Deion, Rod Woodson, or Revis level kind of guys?

[Jacks3]

lol @ Bird being "far" better than a dude who put up 32/7/6/2/30+ PER on excellent efficiency in the greatest defensive era in history. Oh yeah, and he put up those numbers while posting one of the lowest turnover rates in the league. Peak T-Mac was truly incredible.

[L.Kizzle]

Give T-Mac McHale, Parish, DJ, Tiny Archibald, Cornbread, D.Ainge and lets see Bird run with Drew Gooden, Pat Burke and Darrell Armstrong.

[bizil]

lol @ Bird being "far" better than a dude who put up 32/7/6/2/30+ PER on excellent efficiency in the greatest defensive era in history. Oh yeah, and he put up those numbers while posting one of the lowest turnover rates in the league. Peak T-Mac was truly incredible.

I agree 100% Some prefer Bird then fine. But for people to say FAR BETTER is some delusional ass shit! And let's not forget that T-Mac shined in the Golden Era of SG's. That era put featured bonafide future HOFers like Kobe, Wade, AI, Vince, Ray, and Manu. And T-Mac was certainly on his way to HOF until the injuries started. But hopefully T-Mac gets in the HOF one day. He's made more All NBA teams than MANY guys already in the HOF!

[3243]

This shit again?

Bird played at like 10% higher pace, not considerable enough to say things like that, especially for a superstar like him. So he wouldn't be able to take his 20 shots, nowadays? Shit. He'd even be getting much more superstar treatment and ticky-tack calls. 6'6.5" Shawn Marion has about the same TRB% has Bird for his career, and he averages 9.0 rpg in 35 min, at his best getting close to 12 boards per game.. and that's just one example out of numerous. Bird was avering over 7 apg while not even being the main ball-handler and being less ball-dominant than most superstars, in terms of time to do it.
At "today's" pace he averaged about the same he was putting up during those years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po1M--HaINA
In 1992, Celtics' average pace was 95.8, and as a shell, at 35 years old with career-ending injuries, Bird averaged, in less than 37 min, 20.2/9.6/6.8/0.9/0.7 on .547 TS% (in a time where teams/players shot less 3's and players/stars didn't get the same type of calls).
I don't get the inflated notion, he was playing during that time and those were the averages, that's why you gotta compare his numbers to the rest of the league, to his peers. DRtg and eFG% are about the same also. Plus there's too much subjectivity and too much nuances when looking at things from that perspective of 'well look at the league averages'.

Look at the numbers all you want and speculate about the assists or points (Bird averaged the same or more assists as the team got worse, or even more ppg on better efficiency) but Larry turned the Celtics from 2nd worst record to the best record and the ECF, as a rookie, with basically the same roster. In his 2nd year - the major addition was Parish and they traded Cowens - Bird lead them to a title. In arguably the GOAT era, in arguably the GOAT conference, in 4 years he won 3 straight MVP's, 2 FMVP's, went to 4 straight Finals and was injured in the 1985 post-season plus didn't have enough to go all the way in 1987. In the 1984 Playoffs, his teammates were majorly underperforming and he "took" them to a championship while leading them in points, rebounds, assists, steals, FG% and FT%, going against some really stacked teams. With great teammates in 1986, he did more than what it was expected, they pretty much raped a great league. And those are just some examples.
Again, T-Mac was great, amazing to watch and gets forgotten sometimes but he was really not on the same level as prime/peak Bird, and you really can't look at "just" the numbers either.

Not only that, but look at the effect both Bird and McGrady had on the league. When T-Mac was playing, the league was desperately trying to find the next Jordan to be the league's meal ticket. McGrady was just another star in what was seen as an era of flawed superstars and an overall flawed NBA. He did nothing to change that perception. Whereas Bird (and Magic Johnson) arrived in a league that was in much worse shape. The NBA was viewed at that time as a haven for petulant, self-centered cocaine addicts who only cared about their own stats and how much money they could get from their team--or from any team that would pay them, with no regard to team (and fanbase) loyalty or to helping their team win a championship. Attendance and TV ratings were so far down that Finals games were televised on tape delay, right after the local late-night news. Bird and Magic changed that negative perception of NBA players. Both were supremely gifted athletes with off-the-chart intelligence and fundamental skills. Most of all though, both were fanatics about winning championships (preferably against each other) and both parlayed their playing styles into making their teammates better first, with personal glory second.

McGrady, for all of his talent, never came across to me as a player who was always concerned about making his teammates better or winning championships. Now maybe he wanted just as badly to win as Bird, Magic, West, MJ, or Kobe, but it did not come across that way to me.

So yes, Bird was definitely better than T-Mac.

[bizil]

Give T-Mac McHale, Parish, DJ, Tiny Archibald, Cornbread, D.Ainge and lets see Bird run with Drew Gooden, Pat Burke and Darrell Armstrong.

Great point! People seem to forget the supporting casts Bird had to play with over the years. If T-Mac could have got a healthy Hill in Orlando or a healthy Yao in Houston for extended periods of time, I feel T-Mac would have got at least one ring.

[LAZERUSS]

I don't see any reason to post this nonsense.

Bird is/was an all-time great with a minimum of a Top-10 NBA career. T-Mac will be forgotten within a few years.