Hakeem vs Lebron

[Axe]

Nope. Every franchise LeBron has been on so far has won a title. He's about to make it 3 for 3. If you want to win a title, which everyone does, you're choosing LeBron.

You mean sans the team that drafted him in 2003, he's also gone to teams with former fmvps?

[Roundball_Rock]

RRR3, in this thread MJ stans are saying Pippen is a choker for his TS % declining -2.5% in the playoffs in his prime relative to his regular season levels, without realizing the implication of the "2.5% standard". http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...Playoffs/page2

[Axe]

[kawhileonard2]

Hakeem he won multiple titles for the franchise that drafted him.

[eliteballer]

Hakeem's 94/95 title runs are more impressive than anything LeBron has done.

He didn't need Super Teams...or Roids.

[kawhileonard2]

Yep and Hakeem did it for the franchise that drafted him that never won prior to him arriving.

[Shooter]

I'm not going to 3ball this one (i.e. Take the bait and tear down a top 10 ATG).

LeBron is #1.
Hakeem is #9 or#10.

Move on, it's 2022.

[kawhileonard2]

I'm not going to 3ball this one (i.e. Take the bait and tear down a top 10 ATG).

LeBron is #1.
Hakeem is #9 or#10.

Move on, it's 2022.

Lebron isn't anywhere near #1. A guy in his own era has as many titles and beat him 3 times and this when Lebron was the favorite and stacked the deck.

[Shooter]

Lebron isn't anywhere near #1. A guy in his own era has as many titles and beat him 3 times and this when Lebron was the favorite and stacked the deck.

Google: Finals MVPs

[Nowitness]

History has been so kind to Hakeem. The only ATG who gets complete passes on his failures because his wins (as few as they were) were terrific.

The late 80s West was mediocre as hell, yet Hakeem routinely was being bounced in round 1 by Mavs teams led by Rolando Blackman and Derek Harper, or Sonics teams led by Dale Ellis and Xavier McDaniels. That would have been like James losing to Toronto in 2018.

Let me guess tho, he had weak teams? Firstly if he was able to carry the weakest team to ever win a title in 94, how is he failing to even win a playoff series years prior? He had several former All-Stars with him. Hell, in 1990 vs LA he was HIS OWN TEAMS 4th leading scorer behind Thorpe, Sleepy and Mad Max. Still lost the series (albeit this year to an actual good team).

His ability to transcend the stat sheet doesn't come close to LBJ. 1986-93 Hakeem is 05-11/17-19 James, difference being James could dominate a stat sheet and still win playoff series, Hakeem could not.

He is top 5 all time in talent/skill, and arguably the best defender ever. For all that, bar a 2 year period in which MJ was playing Right Field and the 3 point line was shortened, he achieved very little.

10th all time, James top 3.

[HoopsNY]

History has been so kind to Hakeem. The only ATG who gets complete passes on his failures because his wins (as few as they were) were terrific.

The late 80s West was mediocre as hell, yet Hakeem routinely was being bounced in round 1 by Mavs teams led by Rolando Blackman and Derek Harper, or Sonics teams led by Dale Ellis and Xavier McDaniels. That would have been like James losing to Toronto in 2018.

Let me guess tho, he had weak teams? Firstly if he was able to carry the weakest team to ever win a title in 94, how is he failing to even win a playoff series years prior? He had several former All-Stars with him. Hell, in 1990 vs LA he was HIS OWN TEAMS 4th leading scorer behind Thorpe, Sleepy and Mad Max. Still lost the series (albeit this year to an actual good team).

His ability to transcend the stat sheet doesn't come close to LBJ. 1986-93 Hakeem is 05-11/17-19 James, difference being James could dominate a stat sheet and still win playoff series, Hakeem could not.

He is top 5 all time in talent/skill, and arguably the best defender ever. For all that, bar a 2 year period in which MJ was playing Right Field and the 3 point line was shortened, he achieved very little.

10th all time, James top 3.

History isn't nice to Hakeem, it's the complete opposite. You're holding Hakeem to insane standards by focusing on his year 4 and then comparing it to a LeBron in years 13 or 14? How objective are you being, really?

Yea, Hakeem lost to Dallas, and? Houston was a 46 win team and had no Ralph Sampson and lost to a 53 win team (3rd in ORTG, 6th in SRS), that made it to the WCF. Hakeem put up 38/17/2/2/3 on 64% TS%, but Hakeem was the problem? Like, really?

How did Hakeem do in the elimination game? 40/15/3/2/1 on 73% TS%, but you're out here acting like it's Hakeem's fault?

If Hakeem gets slack for losing to Seattle the next year, then what does LeBron get for this year? I'm all for looking at the negatives for a player's career, but let's at least be consistent. LeBron couldn't even make the play-in, let alone the playoffs.

And kuddos to pointing his 1990 series; yea that was bad....almost as bad as LeBron's 2011 finals, but I guess that doesn't count like this year's horrible season for LAL?

It's pretty much known to anyone who was from that era that if Hakeem retains his cast, inclusive of a healthy Sampson, that Houston likely wins 4-5 titles with Hakeem.

And yea, MJ retired. But guess what, the '95 Bulls aren't beating the '95 Rockets, even with peak MJ. So that would have tipped the scales in Hakeem's favor even more. I can almost guarantee the narrative is completely different if factors that were uncontrollable for Hakeem played out in his favor.

[Nowitness]

History isn't nice to Hakeem, it's the complete opposite. You're holding Hakeem to insane standards by focusing on his year 4 and then comparing it to a LeBron in years 13 or 14? How objective are you being, really?

Yea, Hakeem lost to Dallas, and? Houston was a 46 win team and had no Ralph Sampson and lost to a 53 win team (3rd in ORTG, 6th in SRS), that made it to the WCF. Hakeem put up 38/17/2/2/3 on 64% TS%, but Hakeem was the problem? Like, really?

How did Hakeem do in the elimination game? 40/15/3/2/1 on 73% TS%, but you're out here acting like it's Hakeem's fault?

If Hakeem gets slack for losing to Seattle the next year, then what does LeBron get for this year? I'm all for looking at the negatives for a player's career, but let's at least be consistent. LeBron couldn't even make the play-in, let alone the playoffs.

And kuddos to pointing his 1990 series; yea that was bad....almost as bad as LeBron's 2011 finals, but I guess that doesn't count like this year's horrible season for LAL?

It's pretty much known to anyone who was from that era that if Hakeem retains his cast, inclusive of a healthy Sampson, that Houston likely wins 4-5 titles with Hakeem.

And yea, MJ retired. But guess what, the '95 Bulls aren't beating the '95 Rockets, even with peak MJ. So that would have tipped the scales in Hakeem's favor even more. I can almost guarantee the narrative is completely different if factors that were uncontrollable for Hakeem played out in his favor.

You must be joking? There are plenty of people who think he is the best C ever, and many others who have him firmly in their top 10.

I'm using 2018 as an example, but we can just as easily use James in 06/07/09 when he was young to show that, like Hakeem he dominated the stat sheet, but also was able to elevate mediocre teams far. Hakeem when he failed to get past round 1 for 5 straight years was aged 25-30.

Imagine believing Hakeem was a definite top 10 player losing to those Mavs or Sonic teams. At least when Kobe failed to progress post Shaq he was losing to far superior teams. LBJ is in year 19, Hakeem was in year 5, after 3 years of college. That is peak/prime for 90% of players, meanwhile LBJ is at the stage of his career when 99% of players are long retired.

Until he converted to Islam Hakeem was an awful teammate and leader, who again got his, but failed to elevate.

Pointing out LBJ failed in 2011 is fair, you know what the difference is? It was the finals, not round 1. Same with 09, man gets killed whilst averaging 38-8-8, but it was still the ECF.

As for winning in 95 had MJ not retired, whilst likely it's conjecture. By that methodology, LBJ would have won in 15 with a healthy cast.

[HoopsNY]

You must be joking? There are plenty of people who think he is the best C ever, and many others who have him firmly in their top 10.

I typically don't see Hakeem ranked as the greatest center ever. Look at any all-time list; you'll see Shaq, Russell, Kareem, or Wilt ahead of Hakeem.

I'm using 2018 as an example, but we can just as easily use James in 06/07/09 when he was young to show that, like Hakeem he dominated the stat sheet, but also was able to elevate mediocre teams far. Hakeem when he failed to get past round 1 for 5 straight years was aged 25-30.

I should have clarified from the beginning that I don't believe Hakeem had a better career than LeBron. And you're not wrong about getting past the 1st round, but I believe some context should be considered given what was happening with the team the majority of those years. Your #2 and one of the best players in the league basically became phased out, injury prone, and useless...and 3 other players (2 starters) got kicked off the team and banned from the league. I think that would (somewhat) have an impact to the team and is very different to other circumstances.

Imagine believing Hakeem was a definite top 10 player losing to those Mavs or Sonic teams. At least when Kobe failed to progress post Shaq he was losing to far superior teams. LBJ is in year 19, Hakeem was in year 5, after 3 years of college. That is peak/prime for 90% of players, meanwhile LBJ is at the stage of his career when 99% of players are long retired.

LeBron being in year 19 is irrelevant. He produced 30/8/6/1/1 on 52%. We praise him for his production but somehow his production is irrelevant to the team success, despite playing with co-stars? Odd how that works for LeBron but Hakeem doesn't get a break for the demise of his team.

Funny you mention Kobe. Did Kobe perform to the level that Hakeem did in elimination games? How about finals games? How about the playoffs as a whole?

Until he converted to Islam Hakeem was an awful teammate and leader, who again got his, but failed to elevate.

You mean like how Kobe gave up in a game 7, refusing to shoot, and costing his team the entire series? You mean like how Kobe refused to stop shooting on a bad shoulder in the finals against Detroit and defaulting to a (better) teammate in Shaq?

Don't you see the coincidence (and absurdity) of your levies against Hakeem, which conveniently doesn't go for other ATGs?

Pointing out LBJ failed in 2011 is fair, you know what the difference is? It was the finals, not round 1. Same with 09, man gets killed whilst averaging 38-8-8, but it was still the ECF.

Who cares if it was the finals? He played on a superteam, so obviously he advanced that far. What's more important is that that 1990 series you're speaking about was against a 63 win team with the league's MVP. The fact that the Rockets (a 41 win team), lost to a 63 win team in the 1st round, isn't some shocking revelation. And it certainly shouldn't be used as some criticism to Hakeem, as if he was expected to lift his team above LA that year.

As for winning in 95 had MJ not retired, whilst likely it's conjecture. By that methodology, LBJ would have won in 15 with a healthy cast

And lost in '12 and '13 without a superteam. It all balances out.