Kareem's prime and peak?

[SHAQisGOAT]

I wrote this up a while ago:


Was his defensive supporting cast that bad in LA (before they got Cooper, at least)? From my understanding, Kermit Washington and Don Chaney were actually quite good (see my hypothetical on page one of this thread).

I guess some of it was the merger.

Yes. I'm putting more emphasis from 1977-78 til 1978-79

Adrian Dantley couldn't care less about playing defense, especially at that point, and this is no exaggeration, he had the physical tools and he was a smart player but most of the time watching him just not giving a single **** about a defensive possession was more than cringe worthy. If that man was a good teammate, on and off the court, understood team and defense concept and actually cared about playing D, we might've been looking at a top20 player right there.
Nixon gambled a lot and was not big on team defense.
Sweet Lou was never known for defense.
Wilkes was pretty good but the rest just ****ed it up.

[DatAsh]

When did his begin in your opinion, and when did it end? Which year was his offensive peak? Defensive peak?

Right now I'm going with his prime being from his rookie season through 80, but I think the case can be made for it lasting through 81 (Moses was just a tough matchup for him in the playoffs) or 82. From everything I read, that's the final possible season it could be.

I have 77 as his peak on both ends, but I think 71, 72, 74, and 80 (probably not defensively, though) can be argued as well.

I see it almost exactly the way you do. 77 peak, prime is basically all of the 70s.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I think maybe jlauber's going a bit over the top about it, but I do think the mobility is a big deal (especially since Kareem mentioned it in his autobiography, I'll have to reread just to be sure of the wording). Maybe it's just not a huge deal though.

I'm still going with 76-77, but I think 73-74 could be his second best year maybe. Offensively 79-80 is definitely up there too.

You can say that from a statistic standpoint his 1972 season is his best, even one of the very greatest ever.

Offensively and defensively, beast on both sides, still, in 1980. Read some articles that he was really focused on defense that season. Had there been the DPOY award, he would've finished at least top2, that year.

[SHAQisGOAT]

jlauber's point is always about numbers. He doesn't talk about how Kareem played or aspects of his game. He won't be talking about how Kareem's offensive skillset changed due to physical change. That's why I dismissed his contributions.

Kareem's pyhsical evolution is like LeBron in a way. He sacrificed some of his mobility to get stronger.

73-74 season definetely one of his top 4, tho. I agree about 73-74 season being one of his best.

Well said. dankok8's post was pretty much spot on, on this one.

I couldn't disagree more with LAZERUSS. Statistical peak does NOT equal actual peak ability. Jordan put up his best stats in 87-88, Wilt in 61-62, and Lebron in 09-10. I strongly believe none of those 3 guys peaked in the aforementioned seasons.

Lakers' Kareem circa 1977 still had at least 90% of his early athleticism but he was a much more polished player. He had the skyhook perfected with both hands, a mid-range J up to 15 feet, and he had 20 lbs more of muscle to bang down low. His edge in physical strength and experience made him even more devastating in the postseason against elite defenders. In 1980 he lost a little more athleticism but he was till a beast.

Peak: 76-77
Prime: 69-70 to 80-81

[LAZERUSS]

Well said. dankok8's post was pretty much spot on, on this one.

And yet...absolutely no evidence of ANY kind which would have suggested that Kareem was better in '77 than early in his career. Hell, he was just as dominant in the post-season, in his ROOKIE season, as he was in that 76-77 post-season. And his 70-71 and 71-72 seasons just BLOW AWAY ANY of his seasons, in EVERY category, after that.

[DatAsh]

One thing to consider is that Kareem in the late 70s was defended differently than he was in the early 70s. Kareem himself made mention of this.

[SHAQisGOAT]

And yet...absolutely no evidence of ANY kind which would have suggested that Kareem was better in '77 than early in his career. Hell, he was just as dominant in the post-season, in his ROOKIE season, as he was in that 76-77 post-season. And his 70-71 and 71-72 seasons just BLOW AWAY ANY of his seasons, in EVERY category, after that.

You keep mentioning stats, stats, stats and the same stats, please stop.

What kind of evidence? All I can say is,

As an overall player:
>more polished, more refined game:
-perfected sky-hook with the right hand and better with the left, as dankok said
-better FT shooter
-improved footwork and overall postgame
-better at knocking those open mid-range jumpers
>more mass to better deal with the bigger, bruising centers
>better from an intangible stand-point, smarter, developed IQ from many years in the league, clutcher, calmer under pressure, better at reading defenses...

From the footage available just go and watch him play in those early years and then around 1977. That might not be enough but..

The translation of that:
-In 1977, for example, led a Lakers' team which nobody would call good, to 53W, in his 2nd year there, after some trades, with 1st year coach Jerry West, then murdered Parish and Cliff Ray in the semifinals and from an individual stand-point clearly and considerably outplayed Walton in the conference finals. While around worse teammates than in those early Bucks years, CLEARLY.
-Considering that above, in the regular season, he was 1st in PER, 1st in OWS, 1st in DWS, 1st in WS and WS/48, 3rd in DRtg, 1st in FG%(only time in his career), 2nd in points, 1st in rebounds, 1st in blocks, not even top10 in MPG and 9th in minutes played; and was able to do more of the same, in fact really raised that in the post-season
-Look at how in 1971 or 1972(which like I've said can be called as his greatest regular season from a statistical standpoint, in fact one of the very greatest ever, but that never tells the whole story) he considerably dropped his production in the post-season, on the other hand, in 1977 he raised it and had probably had his best post-season but teammates weren't up to par.

What more do you want me to say?

If we look at the raw volume of numbers in the regular-season (what you're doing, only.. also adding to the fact that Kareem was MVP and won a ring because he was that great and the Bucks were stacked):
-Wilt didn't peak in 1967
-Jordan's peak was around 1988, Bird's peak in 88 too
-Lebron was a better player in his younger years, Karl Malone too
-Adrian Dantley is top30 player
..........

And some of the examples above can also be for 'if a player is better when at his athletic peak..'.


Your agenda is clear on this one, or should I say always.. Wilt (also Magic). So I won't continue with this.

[fpliii]

I'm going to be honest, I'm really high on Bucks Kareem right now. Some hype as the most mobile 7 footer ever at the time.

Actually, prime Kareem as a whole is interesting. There is a ton of his games out there. Really would like to watch as much as possible.

[1987_Lakers]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=231270

[Iceman#44]

King was the Mvp in 84...damn

[Iceman#44]

Voting was done by the players through 79-80. The sportswriters who took over in 80-81 had different criteria, most likely. Though it's worth noting that The Sporting News (TSN) NBA Player of the Year actually continued for a while, and was voted on by the players through 01, and again from 09-11 (02-08 front office personnel voted, and TSN has been absorbed by AOL since then and the award no longer exists):

81 Julius Erving
82 Moses Malone
83 Moses Malone
84 Bernard King
85 Larry Bird
86 Larry Bird
87 Magic Johnson
88 Michael Jordan
89 Michael Jordan
90 Charles Barkley
91 Michael Jordan
92 Michael Jordan
93 Charles Barkley
94 Hakeem Olajuwon
95 David Robinson
96 Michael Jordan
97 Michael Jordan
98 Michael Jordan
99 Karl Malone
00 Shaquille O'Neal
01 Allen Iverson
02 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
03 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
04 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
05 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
06 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
07 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
08 Award Voted on by FO Personnel
09 LeBron James
10 LeBron James
11 Derrick Rose
12 Award Discontinued
13 Award Discontinued

Prior to 79-80 they had the same picks for MVP, except in 72-73 (players picked Tiny Archibald for TSN POY, and Dave Cowens for NBA MVP, perhaps due to differences in polling).

King was the Mvp in 84. ..damn