Kareem's prime and peak?

[fpliii]

When did his begin in your opinion, and when did it end? Which year was his offensive peak? Defensive peak?

Right now I'm going with his prime being from his rookie season through 80, but I think the case can be made for it lasting through 81 (Moses was just a tough matchup for him in the playoffs) or 82. From everything I read, that's the final possible season it could be.

I have 77 as his peak on both ends, but I think 71, 72, 74, and 80 (probably not defensively, though) can be argued as well.

[fpliii]

Hm, actually maybe including 82 isn't reasonable.

[LAZERUSS]

When did his begin in your opinion, and when did it end? Which year was his offensive peak? Defensive peak?

Right now I'm going with his prime being from his rookie season through 80, but I think the case can be made for it lasting through 81 (Moses was just a tough matchup for him in the playoffs) or 82. From everything I read, that's the final possible season it could be.

I have 77 as his peak on both ends, but I think 71, 72, 74, and 80 (probably not defensively, though) can be argued as well.

In terms of absolute offensive and defensive domination... from mid-way thru his 69-70 season, thru that post-season, his entire 70-71 season, including the post-season, and his 71-72 regular season. Aside from Wilt thru the mid-to-late 60's; Moses from '79 thru '83; and Shaq from the late 90's and into the early 00's, KAJ's run was the most impressive ever by a big man.

[fpliii]

In terms of absolute offensive and defensive domination... from mid-way thru his 69-70 season, thru that post-season, his entire 70-71 season, including the post-season, and his 71-72 regular season. Aside from Wilt thru the mid-to-late 60's; Moses from '79 thru '83; and Shaq from the late 90's and into the early 00's, KAJ's run was the most impressive ever by a big man.

When do you think his prime (not just peak) ended?

Also, what do you feel caused him to decline? Over-dependence on the hookshot? Putting on mass? Loss of mobility in general?

[LAZERUSS]

When do you think his prime (not just peak) ended?

Also, what do you feel caused him to decline? Over-dependence on the hookshot? Putting on mass? Loss of mobility in general?

Honestly, CavsFan has footage of a college Kareem, and then footage of his very first NBA game. He is running ALL OVER the court in that footage. He was getting his skyhook off much quicker, and with more elevation, too.

Keep in mind that KAJ, as a SOPH, at UCLA, was probably already a top-5 NBA center. And by the end of his rookie season, he was the league's best player.

But, by about 72-73, he had become much more methodical. And the league slowly started catching up to him. He was no longer just trashing the NBA for weeks at a time.

Again, just check out Milwaukee's defensive rankings in the early 70's. He was anchoring the best defense in the league.

Offensively, he was routinely putting up 40 and 50 point games on Cowens, Lanier, Reed, and even Wilt, in the early 70's.


Obviously, he was still a GREAT player the entire decade of the 70's, but for some reason, he lacked motivation. Yes, he could come out a man possessed, and pour in games of 48 or 50 against Walton, but then he would hang 20 on some stumblebum in a loss. His team's were vast underachievers in the latter half of the 70's, too....in a very weak NBA overall.

I have long maintained that had Magic not arrived in '79, that Kareem would have retired around the mid-80's, and would have been labeled a massive underachiever.

[fpliii]

Honestly, CavsFan has footage of a college Kareem, and then footage of his very first NBA game. He is running ALL OVER the court in that footage. He was getting his skyhook off much quicker, and with more elevation, too.

Keep in mind that KAJ, as a SOPH, at UCLA, was probably already a top-5 NBA center. And by the end of his rookie season, he was the league's best player.

But, by about 72-73, he had become much more methodical. And the league slowly started catching up to him. He was no longer just trashing the NBA for weeks at a time.

Again, just check out Milwaukee's defensive rankings in the early 70's. He was anchoring the best defense in the league.

Offensively, he was routinely putting up 40 and 50 point games on Cowens, Lanier, Reed, and even Wilt, in the early 70's.


Obviously, he was still a GREAT player the entire decade of the 70's, but for some reason, he lacked motivation. Yes, he could come out a man possessed, and pour in games of 48 or 50 against Walton, but then he would hang 20 on some stumblebum in a loss. His team's were vast underachievers in the latter half of the 70's, too....in a very weak NBA overall.

I have long maintained that had Magic not arrived in '79, that Kareem would have retired around the mid-80's, and would have been labeled a massive underachiever.

Your raise some good points (I'm actually interested in hearing what PHILA has to say, since he recently watched a lot of Kareem tape for producing shot charts). Kareem got into some of this in his first autobiography. I'll need to reread it soon, it's difficult to parse some of it out from some of the stuff about his personal life (which, while interesting, isn't relevant for this discussion).

I'm actually curious about your thoughts regarding a hypothetical. I posted it to RealGM, but didn't ask here:

What if LA never trades K. Washington, D. Chaney in 77-78?

Both Kermit Washington and Don Chaney were great defenders, and in one of his books Kareem suggests that trading both worsened their playoff fortunes.

Suppose they stay in LA for the durations of their careers (Kermit retired after 81-82, Chaney after 79-80). Here are their results those seasons:

77-78 - 45-37, 5th seed, lose 2-1 in West first round to the Sonics (would have both)
78-79 - 47-35, 5th seed, beat Nuggets 2-1 in West first round, lose 4-1 in West semis to the Sonics (would have both)
79-80 - 60-22, 1st seed, beat Suns 4-1 in West semis, beat Sonics 4-1 in WCF, beat Sixers 4-2 for title (would have both)
80-81 - 54-28, 3rd seed, lose 2-1 in West first round to the Rockets (would have Washington)
81-82 - 57-25, 1st seed, beat Suns 4-0 in West semis, beat Spurs 4-0 in WCF, beat Sixers 4-2 for title (would have Washington)

In the one season they had both guys (EDIT: Kermit Washington missed the entire playoffs, thanks ShaqAttack for pointing this out):

76-77 - 53-29, 1st seed, beat Warriors 4-3 in West semis, lose to Blazers 4-0 in WCF.

What changes?

[ssginc]

You could argue Jabbar's prime and peak ran through 81

[fpliii]

Here's the Q-and-A with PHILA (goes by Dipper 13 on the other board:)

Just wondering, from the sample you used, how different were Bucks and Lakers Kareem?

With the Lakers he seemed to have a stronger base and was more on "cruise control", in terms of the game coming so easy to him at that point. With the Bucks he was quicker off the dribble and didn't rely on the hook shot as much as his later years, like 1980. Game 5 of the Finals that year is one of the all time underrated performances.

Do you think Bucks Kareem (71-74) was a better player than Lakers Kareem (75-80)?

Defensively his Bucks years looked better, and offensively I take the 1977 or 1980 version. This may be an incomplete answer since much of the Bucks footage is incomplete. I believe 1974 is up there as well for an overall peak season, but it is impossible to say with so little game footage.

[LAZERUSS]

Your raise some good points (I'm actually interested in hearing what PHILA has to say, since he recently watched a lot of Kareem tape for producing shot charts). Kareem got into some of this in his first autobiography. I'll need to reread it soon, it's difficult to parse some of it out from some of the stuff about his personal life (which, while interesting, isn't relevant for this discussion).

I'm actually curious about your thoughts regarding a hypothetical. I posted it to RealGM, but didn't ask here:

As much as I believe that KAJ started coasting from the mid-70's on, he was still the best player in the league for much of it. He just wasn't the dominant KAJ that could put up 40 points right after rolling out of bed.

Obviously, he was playing with poor rosters in some years, but even with stacked rosters in the late 70's, and in a very weak league overall, he couldn't get his teams very far in the post-season. Blame it on chemistry issues, or what have you, but he was nowhere near as dominant as the early 70's KAJ by that time.

His 76-77 post-season was probably his greatest (but his regular season was nowhere near his play in the early 70's), but keep in mind that the Warriors were in a rapid decline, so you can take those numbers with a grain of salt. He did wipe the floor with Walton, but Portland had a better (and healthier) roster. I don't think a healthy Laker team beats them, though. The next year the Blazers just ran away from the league, until Walton was injured. They started out 50-10, and were miles ahead of the rest of the league. Interesting too, that a Washington team that went 44-38, won the title that season.

[Round Mound]

Prime: 69-82
Peak: 75-76

[fpliii]

Prime: 69-82
Peak: 75-76

I'm on the fence about 82. What makes you include it in his prime?

[LAZERUSS]

Prime: 69-82
Peak: 75-76

I don't see KAJ's peak as in 75-76...at all. Aside from rebounding (in a very weak season for rebounders), his numbers dropped across the board. And his 76-77 season, overall, was nowhere near his peak, either (although he did have a brilliant 11 game post-season run.)

Still, a ROOKIE KAJ just shredded the MVP Reed in the playoffs. Then he went on to have one of the greatest all-around seasons, including the post-season, in NBA history in '70-71. His production, per minute played, and against league average, was at an all-time high in '70-71, and then very close in the 71-72 regular season.

[fpliii]

I don't see KAJ's peak as in 75-76...at all. Aside from rebounding (in a very weak season for rebounders), his numbers dropped across the board. And his 76-77 season, overall, was nowhere near his peak, either (although he did have a brilliant 11 game post-season run.)

Still, a ROOKIE KAJ just shredded the MVP Reed in the playoffs. Then he went on to have one of the greatest all-around seasons, including the post-season, in NBA history in '70-71. His production, per minute played, and against league average, was at an all-time high in '70-71, and then very close in the 71-72 regular season.

BTW, I posted two quotes from PHILA above. I'm wondering about your thoughts on the difference between Bucks/Lakers Kareem stylistically.

[LAZERUSS]

BTW, I posted two quotes from PHILA above. I'm wondering about your thoughts on the difference between Bucks/Lakers Kareem stylistically.

Again, a Laker Kareem was much more methodical, and less athletic. His shooting skills were more rounded, but his loss of quickness hurt his offense. Now, don't get me wrong. Kareem was a great athlete up until perhaps 1980. But his quickness, mobility, and leaping ability declined from the mid-70's.

He was a much better TEAM defender on the Bucks, and probably a better passer, as well. But again, with his huge mobility and quickness edge over the vast majority of centers in the early 70's, he was just annihilating many of the same centers who would dramatically narrow the gap from the mid-70's on.

[fpliii]

Again, a Laker Kareem was much more methodical, and less athletic. His shooting skills were more rounded, but his loss of quickness hurt his offense. Now, don't get me wrong. Kareem was a great athlete up until perhaps 1980. But his quickness, mobility, and leaping ability declined from the mid-70's.

He was a much better TEAM defender on the Bucks, and probably a better passer, as well. But again, with his huge mobility and quickness edge over the vast majority of centers in the early 70's, he was just annihilating many of the same centers who would dramatically narrow the gap from the mid-70's on.

Cool, thanks for the response.

This is OT, but I'm wondering what your thoughts on Lanier are in general? Also, specifically regarding his defense, did he play much of it outside of 73-74? This article:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=5106,1636156

suggests that he was pretty good on that end that season (evidently he worked with Russ in the summer of 73).