Apart from stats, what has CP3 accomplished?

[DMAVS41]

Paul is CLEARLY better than Stockton, open your eyes.

Uhhh...no, he really isn't.

[moe94]

Kblaze went in.

[Solefade]

legacy is overrated. you got game or you don't.

is anyone going to argue that eli manning is a better quarterback than dan marino or jim kelly? or even peyton manning? **** no. those are the same people that are like "kobe is better than ________ cus he has more rings" but when you say "robert horry has more rings than kobe" it doesn't apply for some reason.

[1987_Lakers]

Paul in his 8 year career has already made more All-NBA First Teams than Stockton who played 19 seasons.

BTW Stockton would probably never have sniffed an All-NBA First Team if Jordan didn't retire in the mid 90's

[Young X]

The problem is these idiots don't know how to separate team success from individual play.

Tony Parker had way more team success than Oscar Robertson. Does that mean he's better? No, it just means he was in a better winning situation.

If Paul played with Malone or Duncan his whole career, would that make him a better player or just a luckier player?

[moe94]

Paul in his 8 year career has already made more All-NBA First Teams than Stockton who played 19 seasons.

BTW Stockton would probably never have sniffed an All-NBA First Team if Jordan didn't retire in the mid 90's

Paul might be better, but that literally has no bearing on anything. Wade only has 2 first teams, iirc. Wonderful argument.

[bdreason]

What did Charles Barkley accomplish outside of stats?

What did Karl Malone accomplish outside of stats?

What did John Stockton accomplish outside of stats?

What did Patrick Ewing accomplish outside of stats?

What did Steve Nash accomplish outside of stats?

What did Clyde Drexler accomplish outside of stats?

What did Dominque Wilkins accomplish outside of stats?

What did Reggie Miller accomplish outside of stats?

What has Kevin Durant accomplished outside of stats?

[longtime lurker]

What did Charles Barkley accomplish outside of stats?

What did Karl Malone accomplish outside of stats?

What did John Stockton accomplish outside of stats?

What did Patrick Ewing accomplish outside of stats?

What did Steve Nash accomplish outside of stats?

What did Clyde Drexler accomplish outside of stats?

What did Dominque Wilkins accomplish outside of stats?

What did Reggie Miller accomplish outside of stats?

What has Kevin Durant accomplished outside of stats?

There are literally only 2 guys on this list that haven't made the finals as the best player.

[Young X]

There are literally only 2 guys on this list that haven't made the finals as the best player.

And they all played on better squads than Paul with much better teammates and coaching.

[get these NETS]

cp3 is a great player


but if you grew up seeing prime kj, prime tim hardaway young gp, prime stockton in the league(and conference) at roughly the same time

be hard for you to get say that cp is is an alltime great


especially since deron williams has his way with cp every game.....the dudes listed above would feast on cp

[1987_Lakers]

Paul might be better, but that literally has no bearing on anything. Wade only has 2 first teams, irrc. Wonderful argument.

That would only help my argument, Wade only making 2 All-NBA First teams shows you how stacked the guard position was. CP3 had to battle with Kobe, Wade, Nash, Parker, Westbrook, Rose (the year he won MVP).

Stockton made an All-NBA First team the same year Latrell Sprewell made it. BTW Stockton NEVER made an All-NBA First team when Jordan was in the league for a full season.

[gts]

legacy is overrated. you got game or you don't.

is anyone going to argue that eli manning is a better quarterback than dan marino or jim kelly? or even peyton manning? **** no. those are the same people that are like "kobe is better than ________ cus he has more rings" but when you say "robert horry has more rings than kobe" it doesn't apply for some reason.

Context

[Solefade]

Context

oh so context finally comes into play when it comes to horry > kobe why isn't there context for kobe's first 3 rings?

anyway not trying to make this thread about Kobe but CP3 is a top 5 PG of all time regardless of how his final NBA resume turns out.

[Dolphin]

agreed, before me and my buddy were arguing cp3 vs westbrook i told him call me when cp gets to an nba finals

This is why I separate career success from how good a player is/was.

For career success you can simply look at awards, rings and the like (I'd argue that Paul would still win this regardless of Westbrook's one finals appearance). Even a lazy person or someone with low bball IQ can have a decent opinion on this.

But when discussing how good a player is/was, and to have a good discussion at that, you can't be lazy and throw out one finals appearance as a counter point. You have to use the eye test season to season as well as in specific high importance moments (ALL facets of a player's game). You need to look at stats to a certain extent (whether old and/or new age stats). If a player's team had success, who was on the team? If you put that player on another compared player's team, how would they do? How would the team's success be altered? You have to look at the level of talent in the league at the time the player was playing (if applicable) and gauge if said player's greatness was a product of the times or if his game was transferable to any generation. What are the leadership qualities of the player? There are other things I'm not thinking of I'm sure.

Some people here imo overrated Paul especially in his NO days, but if you're asking me as a GM, who would I pick to be on my team between Paul and Westbrook, I'd choose Paul.

[DMAVS41]

The problem is these idiots don't know how to separate team success from individual play.

Tony Parker had way more team success than Oscar Robertson. Does that mean he's better? No, it just means he was in a better winning situation.

If Paul played with Malone or Duncan his whole career, would that make him a better player or just a luckier player?

Very few people, if any, take Parker over Paul.

So again I don't see the validity of this argument. Nobody is asking for titles from Paul...but at least a conference finals would be nice from a guy that is supposed to be as good as you guys claim.

I'm sure he'll eventually do it, but all we have so far is his career to date. And it puts him somewhere in the top 10 pg's of all time. I honestly have no clue where. He's just in that grouping...and hasn't done enough to separate himself from some of the past greats.

So again...what is the point here? That Paul is clearly better than guys like Penny, Stockton, Kidd? Is that what you are saying?