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The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
this is a quote from one of his fans Round Mound
Originally Posted by Round Mound
That its Why its Stupid to make an All Time Great Player List because of Number or Rings.
Make All Time Great Player Lists According to Statistica Efficiency Evidence (sad but true), Impact They Made in the Game, Rule Changes That Where Enfourced For That Player, How Many Double or Triple Teams He Forced etc.
hes mad about a list of players who won with help. apparently he thinks charles had none
guys who were allstars and huge contributors while playing with kobe
nick van exel, eddie jones, shaquille oneal, karl malone, gary payton, pau gasol, andrew bynum, ron artest, dwight howard, steve nash
guys who were allstars and were huge contributors while playing with barkley
andrew tony, maurice cheeks, moses malone, julius erving, hersey hawkins, dan majerle, kevin johnson, tom chambers, danny manning, michael finley, hakeem olajuwon, clyde drexler, kevin willis, scottie pippen, steve francis
barkleys had 7 hall of famers, kobes had 5
barkleys had 16 all stars, kobes had 10
barkley played with most of his help for a good amount of time, kobe had 4 of his allstars for just 1 season, 2 of them were injured (nash, malone), 2 of them were before he even started for LA ( nick,eddie )
barkley played with a hall of famer during his prime ( kevin johnson ) kobe played with no hall of famers during his peak ( 2005-06 to 2009-10 )
gasol is not a hall of fame nba player. maybe internationally he is. but not strictly based on nba resume
i agree that rings arnt the only thing to judge a guy on. but they are used as tie breakers between comparable players
obviously barkley is better than horry
but no way is he better than guys who could get the job done with far less help
barkleys an underachiever who had a ton of help throughout his career. he never won because he lacks passion, heart, conditioning, work ethic, defensive pride, and the ability to respect or earn respect from team mates
scottie pippen pretty much summed up chucks career
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-ugxfIYANA
"sorry fat butt"
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Re: The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
He had help in 93, but then he left his prime in 94. So he had a good team for a year in his prime.
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7-time NBA All-Star
Re: The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
The hell is your problem with Barkley? This is the second anti-Barkley thread from you in a week. I don't think most people even rank him ahead of Kobe when doing an all-time list. I think Barkley's peak/prime has a case over Kobe's in terms of just overall impact and play, but in terms of career/legacy, I think most people rank Kobe higher.
And you said something about how Kobe had some All-Star/HOF teammates before his prime or when they were old...wasn't Dr. J already past his prime when Barkley was drafted? And he had, what, two or three years (his first two or three years in the league) with Moses Malone? By his 4th or 5th year in the league (late 80s/early 90s)his supporting casts in Philly weren't anything great. I mean wasn't Hersey Hawkins his #2 for awhile?
Then he got to Houston, past his prime, and had other guys on the back-end of their prime in Hakeem and Clyde. Not that they weren't still very good players, but if you're going to move the goalposts and make excuses for Kobe, then be fair and do the same for Barkley.
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Re: The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
Originally Posted by KG215
The hell is your problem Barkley? This is the second anti-Barkley thread from you in a week.
And you said something about how Kobe had some All-Star/HOF teammates before his prime or when they were old...wasn't Dr. J already past his prime when Barkley was drafted? And he had, what, two or three years (his first two or three years in the league) with Moses Malone? By his 4th or 5th year in the league (late 80s/early 90s)his supporting casts in Philly weren't anything great.
I dont hate the guy. I just think his favorite fan needed a reality check
And yes barkley had hall of famers who were old. Young, prime, a bunch of allstars. He has no excuse
Its not like hes f*ckin some dude stuck on the clippers his whole life
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Re: The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
Originally Posted by magnax1
He had help in 93, but then he left his prime in 94. So he had a good team for a year in his prime.
Yeps. One season of help. Got to the finals.
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NBA rookie of the year
Re: The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
Barkley faced MJ. Kobe faced who?
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Re: The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
The OP is a Kobe homer, ergo facto delusional, but this Barkley thread is his second this week, so he has a bit of an agenda. Most importantly he was likely swimming in jizz during much of Barkley's playing days so he cannot realistically comment on what goes on.
Barkley played 8 years in Philadelphia, averaged 20-10 for all but his rookie, and above 23 and 11 for all but one.
Barkley had old Moses his first two years.
Barkley had old Dr. J his first 3 years.
Barkley never really had Andrew Toney because he was always injured.
Barkley had Mo Cheeks his first 4 years.
This doesn't tell the story, it is simply an explanation of the aged, veteran team Barkley was drafted onto.
After the old vets left, Hersey Hawkins came in and was the best player Brakley played with during his prime Philly years, Hersey had a couple of big seasons averaging 20ppg living off the CB double teams.
ONCE HERSEY AND CHARLES WERE SEPARATED, Hawkins's scoring dropped 20-50%.
During Barkley's prime he was in a line up like this:
Mike Gminski
Armon Gilliam
Charles Barkley
Hersey Hawkins
Johnny Dawkins
Not exactly star studded.
Onto Phoenix. Barkley went to Phoenix on the downside of his peak, but still effective enough to win MVP. He had a great team here and challenged for the chip annually.
Barkley played one season with Tom Chambers.
Barkley played 79 games with Danny Manning.
Houston was when Barkley was washed up, it is like giving Gary Payton shit for not dominating on the Lakers.
The OP is young dumb, and sadly his Dad was too full of c*m and didn't pull out and now we have to suffer through these threads.
And why is he making it about Kobe? No one says Barkley > Kobe, just more insecure Kobestandom.
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Kobe= 1st round loser
Re: The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
Barkley was far superior than Kobe.
Kobe without a HOFer= 2 first round losses, 1 missed playoffs, 2 7th seeds...all in his prime.
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Re: The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
Originally Posted by I<3NBA
Barkley faced MJ. Kobe faced who?
an mvp
the greatest shooter of all time
the 2nd greatest shooter of all time
the best defensive player in the 2000s ( dpoty ) ..... twice
the 2nd best defensive player in the 2000's ( dpoty )
the 3rd best defensive player in the 2000's ( dpoty )
and the best defensive player of the 1990's ( dptoy )
a top 5 point guard all time
a top 5-10 clutch shooter all time
another top 5-10 clutch shooter all time ( twice )
and another top 5-10 clutch shooter all time ( twice )
the greatest defensive team in nba history
and a top 5 defensive team ever
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and thats just in the finals
in the playoffs he also faced a top 8-10 all time legend almost every year seemingly... beating him almost twice as many times
da fuq you mean "who kobe face"?
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Re: The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
Just counting HOFers and all-stars does not make sense.
One player can play with one HOFer for like 15 seasons, while another player can play with one HOFer in one season and then another HOFer in another, and that second HOFer has technically played with more HOFers then the other.
It would be more accurate to list compare like this:
Kobe, HOFers and number of seasons played:
Shaq - 8
Gasol - 6
Malone - 1
Payton - 1
Howard - 1
Nash - 1
Rodman - 1
Barkley, HOFers and number of seasons played:
KJ - 4
Hakeem - 4
Dr. J - 3
Drexler - 2
Moses - 2
Pippen - 1
Thats 19 vs. 16. Of course, you can say in both instances that they didn't necessarily play with some of these HOFers playing at a HOF level.
But I agree, Barkley has definitely had help.
Last edited by guy; 10-11-2013 at 11:48 AM.
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Curry: 0x Finals MVP
Re: The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
What people don't understand about Barkley was that he was always a colossal loser. He was never going to win a title as the best player. Unless of course it was in Wilt's era.
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Decent college freshman
Re: The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
And why is he making it about Kobe? No one says Barkley > Kobe, just more insecure Kobestandom.
He is better just looking at offense. The only advantage Kobe has on him is in spot up (catch & shoot) situations and at the FT line. I believe he also has roughly 6 or so undeserved all defensive 1st team selections, notably 2009, 2010, 2011 robbing players like Wade and Tony Allen, but he certainly was an excellent defensive guard at one point.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=312709
In the 84 game sample footage, we can see (among other things) how underrated Barkley is in low post defense, holding the opponents to 36.5% shooting. He was undersized in height, but he played excellent position defense. He was particularly effective at pulling the chair out from the opponent like Rick Mahorn. He would get the post player leaning hard and then take a step back at the last second, often forcing a travel or poor shot. He was capable of being a very good defensive player, but as a 6'5 interior player there was definitely a ceiling to how good he could have been. He was capable of great defense in spurts, but the problem was you did not know how he was going to play on any given possession. He main weaknesses were P&R defense and overall weakside rotations/help defense. I have seen him make some freakish defensive blocks, even game winning blocks and defensive plays, but I think what stands out to most is that when he actually was out of position, he tended to be way out of position.
For all the advanced stat fanatics, we can also see that despite the team defense being below average with him on the floor, he was still having an impact due to how much worse they got with him on the bench (on both ends). He was easily better defensively than other forwards he played next to, like Tom Chambers and Armen Gilliam.
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soundcloud.com/agua-1
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Re: The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
Originally Posted by guy
Just counting HOFers and all-stars does not make sense.
One player can play with one HOFer for like 15 seasons, while another player can play with one HOFer in one season and then another HOFer in another, and that second HOFer has technically played with more HOFers then the other.
It would be more accurate to list compare like this:
Kobe, HOFers and number of seasons played:
Shaq - 8
Gasol - 6
Malone - 1
Payton - 1
Howard - 1
Nash - 1
Rodman - 1
Barkley, HOFers and number of seasons played:
KJ - 4
Hakeem - 4
Dr. J - 3
Drexler - 2
Moses - 2
Pippen - 1
Thats 19 vs. 16. Of course, you can say in both instances that they didn't necessarily play with some of these HOFers playing at a HOF level.
But I agree, Barkley has definitely had help.
If you wanna get all technical... How about instead of putting 1 season next to guys like rodman and nash. And instead put 0.3
Malone was hurt too
And i'l say it again. Gasol is not a hall of fame nba player. His 2 total third team all nbas dont cut it. 4 reserve allstar games. 0-16 in the playoffs as leader
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Re: The Crazy idea that Sir Charles Barkley didn't have help
Originally Posted by kennethgriffin
If you wanna get all technical... How about instead of putting 1 season next to guys like rodman and nash. And instead put 0.3
Malone was hurt too
And i'l say it again. Gasol is not a hall of fame nba player. His 2 total third team all nbas dont cut it. 4 reserve allstar games. 0-16 in the playoffs as leader
Umm okay. You can do the same for alot of Barkley's teammates too, especially KJ, Hakeem, and Clyde who were very injury prone when they played with Barkley.
Gasol also has one All-NBA 2nd team. You realize Rodman has only 2 all-star games, 2 All-NBA third teams, and was never considered a leader of an NBA team right? And he's in the HOF. Gasol is going to make the HOF. Pretty much every NBA analyst thinks so and refers to him as a future HOFer. But I guess your opinion means more
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