Losing with home court advantage (top 12 players of all time)

[fpliii]

Yea I took that part as 'guards are more skilled, well rounded basketball players'.. like he said earlier, a 6'5 guy is no lock to come close to the professional ranks.. he has to have great handles, shooting, passing, defense.. hes got to be a complete basketball player.

But if you're 6'11 and can run in a straight line/jump/ etc. you pretty much dont have to work as hard to make it. Centers nowadays cant shoot, have weak post moves, dont know how to control an offense on the block, all they do is defend, rebound, and throw up a few simple offensive moves.. for the most part, guards are more impressive basketball players.. that happen to be shorter and less impactful than big men who can change the game in more ways directly due to their height.

if that makes sense lol

Eh, a lot of great wings have been sieves defensively. I agree the path is easier for a seven footer, but you can't teach size. The size advantage (which helps on defense obviously, particularly in paint protection, as well as with rebounding) is a huge part of it. Non-bigs obviously have the ability to be more impactful on offense due to ball-handling.

I do think from an aesthetic POV the bolded is true (though obviously your Hakeems are the exceptions), since the best points and wings are generally incredibly skilled (and have a sense of flair). But it can't make up the size/presence disadvantage. That's just my opinion though (but I think it's pretty sound/logical).

[ProfessorMurder]

I like how every body has taken this as a shit on Bird party.

3 of those series were after his back problems started, the team was ancient, and they lost 2 of those three to the f*cking Bad Boys. It's not like they got rolled by the current Bobcats. The other was a Knicks team with prime Ewing.

3 more of the series they lost to Philadelphia. If you're thinking Philadelphia wasn't an awesome team you're retarded. From 77-85 Philadelphia was in the ECF or finals 7 times. 7. They had great players, Mo Cheeks, Andrew Toney, Dawkins, Dr. J, and Moses. Andrew Toney was unbelievable for a stretch.

The only series that was bad was losing to the Bucks.

I believe Philly or Detroit would've won at least another title in their runs if Boston didn't tire them out before the championship.

[kennethgriffin]

I don't know about KG, but I agree with that. This part:



I have a problem with in griff's post.

maybe i worded it wrong

people assume i'm saying a guard/forward PERIOD is better than a center PERIOD

when infact when i say "for the most part" i'm trying to say theres more great non big men out there

like in the league today.. theres maybe 2-3 great bigs

but theres like 30 great non bigs

and even 10-13 years ago.. when shaq was dominating.. who were the centers he faced in the finals

rick smits at the end of his career
dekembe mutombo at the end of his career
todd macculloch?

who did the bulls face in the finals? gregg ostertag, sam perkins, oliver miller, buck williams and vlade divac

and people were all like "jordan didnt have a great center!"

yea niether did any of the other contending teams at the time... cept for hakeems rockets who only showed up in jordans off years for some reason

[KG215]

I like how every body has taken this as a shit on Bird party.

3 of those series were after his back problems started, the team was ancient, and they lost 2 of those three to the f*cking Bad Boys. It's not like they got rolled by the current Bobcats. The other was a Knicks team with prime Ewing.

3 more of the series they lost to Philadelphia. If you're thinking Philadelphia wasn't an awesome team you're retarded. From 77-85 Philadelphia was in the ECF or finals 7 times. 7. They had great players, Mo Cheeks, Andrew Toney, Dawkins, Dr. J, and Moses. Andrew Toney was unbelievable for a stretch.

The only series that was bad was losing to the Bucks.

I believe Philly or Detroit would've won at least another title in their runs if Boston didn't tire them out before the championship.

Good points. And I'm sure you could find similar instances for other players on the OP's list. As is the case the majority of the time, you can't just take things like this at face value. You have to put them into context.

[fpliii]

maybe i worded it wrong

people assume i'm saying a guard/forward PERIOD is better than a center PERIOD

when infact when i say "for the most part" i'm trying to say theres more great non big men out there

like in the league today.. theres maybe 2-3 great bigs

but theres like 30 great non bigs

and even 10-13 years ago.. when shaq was dominating.. who were the centers he faced in the finals

rick smits at the end of his career
dekembe mutombo at the end of his career
todd macculloch?

the bulls faced gregg ostertag, sam perkins, oliver miller, buck williams and vlade divac

and people were all like "jordan didnt have a great center!"

yea niether did any of the other contending teams at the time

Dude you're cherry-picking here. The Bulls are the exception to the rule (the current Heat are like that as well, as were the West/Baylor Lakers), and Shaq played in one of the weaker eras for centers. But you know very well that you don't always face the best team in the Finals, and the Spurs had two of the best big men in league history. The Bulls went up against Ewing and Shaq in the playoffs (and Malone twice in the Finals if he counts), even though it wasn't in the Finals (put Jordan/Pippen in the 80s and they might not win a single championship without a great big). BTW Deke was DPOY that season (Shaq abused him but he was just on another level).

Given a great big and a great non-big, I'll take the big. Given a good big and a good non-big, I'll take the big. Given an average big and an average non-big, I'll take the big. Hell, even if we're talking scrubs give me the big and he can at least be a body in the paint.

[KG215]

maybe i worded it wrong

people assume i'm saying a guard/forward PERIOD is better than a center PERIOD

when infact when i say "for the most part" i'm trying to say theres more great non big men out there

like in the league today.. theres maybe 2-3 great bigs

but theres like 30 great non bigs

First off, there's not 30 "great" non bigs in the NBA right now. That is unless you've got a very loose definition of the word great.

Secondly, the last 10 or so years is generally regarded as the weakest era for big men ever, even though there's been some great non-center bigs like Duncan, KG, and Dirk.

who did the bulls face in the finals? gregg ostertag, sam perkins, oliver miller, buck williams and vlade divac

and people were all like "jordan didnt have a great center!"

yea niether did any of the other contending teams at the time... cept for hakeems rockets who only showed up in jordans off years for some reason

And just about every single word of this is wrong. Almost every other contender in Jordan's era had an all-time level great big man. Even if you're just breaking it down to centers, the Knicks (Ewing), Magic (Shaq), Rockets (Hakeem), and Spurs (Robinson) were contenders in Jordan's era.

[ProfessorMurder]

Good points. And I'm sure you could find similar instances for other players on the OP's list. As is the case the majority of the time, you can't just take things like this at face value. You have to put them into context.

Exactly, context is everything.

[ProfessorMurder]

Also, Bird had no McHale in 1980.

I decided to do a couple more.

Duncan -

01 - Lost to prime Shaq during threepeat
04 - Lost to Lakers super team, a young Manu/TP were the help
06 - Lost to the Mavs who should've won the championship
09 - They were pretty old, lost to the Mavs again
11 - Manu's broken arm against Memphis
12 - Lost to OKC

I'd give them a pass for 01, 04, and 06 for sure. The other three times they were beaten by youth. Even if they beat Memphis they'd lose to someone else.

2012 is probably the only year I'd say they f*cked up.

Shaq
94 - Second year with nobody good around him, Pacers had vets
95 - Hakeem's rockets were the better team
04 - Detroit was the better team, Kobe chucked, Detroit went on a run of 7 ECFs
05 - Detroit again
10 - Old fat Shaq beaten by the very good Celtics

Shaq was beaten with good team work so you can't really blame him for the losses against better teams. I wouldn't blame Shaq specifically for any of those years. If you want someone to blame, blame Kobe in 04 and LeBron in 10.

Hakeem
85 - lost as a rookie on a weaker team to a slightly better Jazz team
87 - lost as a 3rd year player with a pretty weak team to a stronger Sonics team

The 2nd best guy was Ralph Sampson, then and old Cornbread Maxwell in 87.

Neither were Hakeem's fault.


------

Face it, home court doesn't mean you have a better team. Basketball is all match ups, and regular season strength of schedule can totally skew seeding. The better teams usually win regardless of home court.

[BoutPractice]

The first thing those stats show, of course, is that Bird and Duncan very often had homecourt advantage... meaning their teams won a lot.

[jlip]

The first thing those stats show, of course, is that Bird and Duncan very often had homecourt advantage... meaning their teams won a lot.

Yep. I think Bird's Celtics averaged 60 wins per season from '80-'88.

[9erempiree]

The first thing those stats show, of course, is that Bird and Duncan very often had homecourt advantage... meaning their teams won a lot.

and they lost a lot too. Those stats show a lot of years but it shows losses.

I'm sure Kobe and MJ had way more than zero or 2 series where they had home court, you just don't see it because they hardly lost and both their teams have won a lot of games too.

[Overdrive]

I don't care how many different ways you try to explain it, the entire premise behind your line of thought is still severely flawed. Of course that's nothing new when it comes to your posts, yet you always post the same general things over and over, like you believe you're educating people, when in all reality 99.9% of what you post isn't worth reading.

And yes, I've wasted too much time reading your posts.

His premise is true actually, the problem kicks When he spins his own argument to make. Kobe greater.

If the average C is a scrub and the avg G is useful great Centers are greater.

Average natriumchlorid is useful, great salt is just a little bit more useful. Average carbon is less useful than salt, yet diamonds...


BTW the only time Kobe's team solely depended on him he didn't have HCA.

[sportjames23]

Dat MJ doe.

[Magic 32]

Also, Bird had no McHale in 1980.

I decided to do a couple more.

Duncan -

01 - Lost to prime Shaq during threepeat
04 - Lost to Lakers super team, a young Manu/TP were the help
06 - Lost to the Mavs who should've won the championship
09 - They were pretty old, lost to the Mavs again
11 - Manu's broken arm against Memphis
12 - Lost to OKC

I'd give them a pass for 01, 04, and 06 for sure. The other three times they were beaten by youth. Even if they beat Memphis they'd lose to someone else.

2012 is probably the only year I'd say they f*cked up.

Shaq
94 - Second year with nobody good around him, Pacers had vets
95 - Hakeem's rockets were the better team
04 - Detroit was the better team, Kobe chucked, Detroit went on a run of 7 ECFs
05 - Detroit again
10 - Old fat Shaq beaten by the very good Celtics

Shaq was beaten with good team work so you can't really blame him for the losses against better teams. I wouldn't blame Shaq specifically for any of those years. If you want someone to blame, blame Kobe in 04 and LeBron in 10.

Hakeem
85 - lost as a rookie on a weaker team to a slightly better Jazz team
87 - lost as a 3rd year player with a pretty weak team to a stronger Sonics team

The 2nd best guy was Ralph Sampson, then and old Cornbread Maxwell in 87.

Neither were Hakeem's fault.


------

Face it, home court doesn't mean you have a better team. Basketball is all match ups, and regular season strength of schedule can totally skew seeding. The better teams usually win regardless of home court.

I wonder if Kobe or Lebron would get that many "breaks" from NBA fans.

Just to show that you can play devil's advocate on some of these....

Tim Duncan

01 - Didn't show up in the second half of game 2. Didn't show up for game 3 at all (when Robinson finally did).
04 - Lost to Lakers super team, but the Pistons made it look easy. Lost 4 straight games while shooting below 40% in 3 of those games.
09 - They were pretty old (but apparently not too old, because the core made to the finals 4 years later).
11 - Losing to an 8 seed is bad, period
12 - Lost to OKC. Again, had a 2-0 lead.

[Sarcastic]

Also, Bird had no McHale in 1980.

I decided to do a couple more.

Duncan -

01 - Lost to prime Shaq during threepeat
04 - Lost to Lakers super team, a young Manu/TP were the help
06 - Lost to the Mavs who should've won the championship
09 - They were pretty old, lost to the Mavs again
11 - Manu's broken arm against Memphis
12 - Lost to OKC

I'd give them a pass for 01, 04, and 06 for sure. The other three times they were beaten by youth. Even if they beat Memphis they'd lose to someone else.

How were the Spurs "old" in 09, but good enough to make the finals this year?

Duncan also never was able to repeat as champion, which is a flaw in his resume. Most of the other players in the top 10 were able to defend their titles, with Wilt being the exception but he played in the Russell era which is his excuse and he has outstanding stats.