Who played harder than Allen Iverson? Ever?

[Owl]

What? What was you watching?

How do you look at "off the ball" scoring? I hope just because Eric Snow dribbled the ball past half court and gave it to Iverson to dribble and drive, that you don't count that as off the ball scoring.

Iverson led the league in usage % 4 straight years from 98' to 02' I believe. The 04' season you say he started handling the ball more doesn't even equate his highest usage % of 00'-01 and 01'-02'.

Not taking a side on this but ball dominance (as discussed here and as generally understood) is not the same as usage (as I think you understand by your first comments).

Ball dominance is about is about hanging onto the ball (typically for too long). Hence the suggestion above the that CP3 is more ball dominant than Iverson (albeit CP3 was much more likely to end the possession with a basket for himself or a teammate).

And no they aren't including iso moves after Snow takes it to halfcourt the explicitly stated contention in KBlazes post 78 on the previous page that the discussion as presently framed is about Iverson scoring off the ball and especially off picks.

It now seems to me you have been misinformed of or misinterpreted usage as it is conventionally calculated. Typically it is about the number of plays which you end (either by shooting, by shooting free throws or by turning the ball over http://www.nbastuffer.com/component/...%20Percentage/ ).

[Legends66NBA7]

Surprised Larry Bird hasn't been mentioned yet. He has to be up there.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh and first game that came to mind:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypmr7jrqUaE

He made 17 field goals and 9 were straight up off the ball movement catch and shoot plays. And like 4 were on the break. But perception was he was a ball hog who had to dribble into all his shots.

Allen Iverson was a beast off the ball.

Even the games with only 5-6 off the ball scores like this 54 point game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbFpYhFEhZA

Its just him being relentless on the break. Its mostly quick scores and transition pullup jumpers and drives.

AI wasnt a Steve Francis type dribbling 17 seconds to make a decision. Most good point guards had the ball more than he did. When he went full time point...he handled the ball a lot. As point guards tend to do.

But he was no doubt among the top off the ball scorers of all time.

You couldnt follow him through some of those gaps he would contort and slide through sideways and when he emerged he was ready to shoot every time.

He wore guys out trying to chase him around.

[ShaqAttack3234]

What? What was you watching?

How do you look at "off the ball" scoring? I hope just because Eric Snow dribbled the ball past half court and gave it to Iverson to dribble and drive, that you don't count that as off the ball scoring.

Iverson led the league in usage % 4 straight years from 98' to 02' I believe. The 04' season you say he started handling the ball more doesn't even equate his highest usage % of 00'-01 and 01'-02'.

As others have stated already, usage % only accounts for how many possessions you get a stat from whether it's a FGA, assist, TO ect. Not how long/much you dribble the ball or in general, ball-dominance.

I have to ask what you were watching because as I said earlier, it wasn't uncommon to see AI come off curls, backdoor cuts ect.

If you're trying to look at this from a numbers perspective, well you can't prove ball-dominance with stats, maybe synergy keeps track of how many dribbles you take on average, how long you hold the ball, I don't know, but as far as what we have access to, you have to watch the games for that.

But it's no coincidence that he wasn't even leading his team in assists for several years ranking second in '99 with 4.6, second in '00 with 4.7, third in '01 with 4.6 and second again in '02 and '03 with 5.5 apg each season. Then when he switches to PG in the '04-'05 season, he's at 7.9 apg and 7.4 the season after that.

Iverson was also assisted on 42.4% of his field goals in 2001, 42.3% in 2002 and 42.7% in 2003, but just 22.3% in 2005 and just 24% in 2006.

Those numbers should at least help paint a picture of Iverson becoming noticeably more ball-dominant when he switched to point guard, which you'd expect.

[Take Your Lumps]

Another game that isnt really of note. Not even highlights. But....a lot of those plays are just off wanting it the most. The swarming defense?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-rtvkOO0Ak

Dikembe still had it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...tvkOO0Ak&t=139

[branslowski]

I wasn't saying Iverson never scored off the ball. I was merely responding to a post I saw that said "Iverson scores off the ball more than Reggie Miller or Ray Allen" and I just wanted to see the numbers on that.

I'm also not a boxscore junky like LeBron stans, I'd rather watch the games. All in all, don't get it twisted, Iverson is one of my Top 5 favorite players of All-Time. I watched atleast 80% of dudes games. Again, I've seen him run off the ball, and even score on catch and shoot, but not at a clip that would make him more effective off the ball than Reggie Miller.

All that said, Iverson was one of the greatest players to watch. I even remeber his first legit buzzer beater gamewinner vs the Pacers. Marc Zumoff (how ever you spell it) and the First Union Center was going bonkers

[Solid Snake]

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