So the Spurs lose Gary Neal? Yeah, this offseason has been terrible for them.

[Owl]

Did the Spurs make the most of their cap room?

No.

If they had got the Manu deal done sooner (and got rid of his cap hold) they could have got Millsap. Had they got the Manu deal done sooner and cheaper (something like $5m a year, 3 years; rather than 7.25 a year average, 2 years) they could have got Bynum.

Does that mean that we should write the Spurs off?

No, we've done that too often (the last 5 years roughly), so I think they've earned the benefit of the doubt even if they are aging, and Manu is showing it.

Is losing Gary Neal a big deal?

No.
12-13 PER: 11.5, 12-13 WS/48: .060

[DMAVS41]

I'm not saying he won't improve, he should.....but nobody is going to be surprised how much more he is featured. That's not his game right now.

His numbers should improve because of more minutes, not being featured more. More minutes = more stats

He averaged like 37 minutes per game in the playoffs and got 10 shots in that time. I'd bet that number of shots goes up...probably to 12.5 per 36 minutes vs 9.8 per 36 last year.

Of course minutes play a role...that is being featured more. You are just arguing semantics. Clearly the Spurs will continue to move away from the big 3 and will rely more on guys like Splitter and Leonard more.

[Doranku]

Did the Spurs make the most of their cap room?

No.

If they had got the Manu deal done sooner (and got rid of his cap hold) they could have got Millsap. Had they got the Manu deal done sooner and cheaper (something like $5m a year, 3 years; rather than 7.25 a year average, 2 years) they could have got Bynum.

Does that mean that we should write the Spurs off?

No, we've done that too often (the last 5 years roughly), so I think they've earned the benefit of the doubt even if they are aging, and Manu is showing it.

Is losing Gary Neal a big deal?

No.
12-13 PER: 11.5, 12-13 WS/48: .060

PER and Win Shares being the sole metrics used to measure a player's value to his team.

Textbook ISH.

[Owl]

PER and Win Shares being the sole metrics used to measure a player's value to his team.

Textbook ISH.

Not the only ones used. Just a convenient shorthand to show how replaceable he is. Go ahead and explain why I (and Pop and Buford and co.) are wrong.

[Doranku]

Not the only ones used. Just a convenient shorthand to show how replaceable he is. Go ahead and explain why I (and Pop and Buford and co.) are wrong.

I never said you were wrong, I just think it's funny that you said losing him isn't a big deal because his PER and WS/48 are low.

There's much more to a player than made up, personally biased statistics. For example, Gary Neal is one of those players that can explode and hit 3-4-5 straight 3s. We saw that in the finals. Moreover, he's a guy who isn't afraid to throw up a 3 with 20 seconds left in the shot clock if he's hot.

And that's part of the reason why I think Pop didn't mind letting him go. He's not a fan of those types of players. They already re-signed one loose cannon in Ginobili so it's easy to see why Pop didn't want to keep Neal.

Not saying that players like Neal are ideal basketball players, but his hot shooting and fearlessness played a huge role in why SA was 28 seconds away from beating the Heat in the finals this year. Guys like him can be extremely valuable if utilized/disciplined correctly.

A PER of 11 and WS/48 of whatever doesn't tell you those things.

[Euroleague]

Neal sucks. All he can do is shoot. He's a great shooter, but that's the only game he has.

There are hundreds of better players than him they could sign for less money from Europe.

I agree about Manu and Splitter though. Manu is an ex player, and Splitter is trash.

About Belinelli though................that guy is an awful chucker with zero defense. No serious team would ever have him on their roster. The Spurs clearly signaled they have zero intent on winning a title when they added him.

[Carbine]

He averaged like 37 minutes per game in the playoffs and got 10 shots in that time. I'd bet that number of shots goes up...probably to 12.5 per 36 minutes vs 9.8 per 36 last year.

Of course minutes play a role...that is being featured more. You are just arguing semantics. Clearly the Spurs will continue to move away from the big 3 and will rely more on guys like Splitter and Leonard more.

I don't equate playing more minutes to being featured more. If your point was Leonard is going to play more minutes, then agreed....but that's obvious.

Also, continue to move away from the Big 3?

2009-2010.....big 3 combined for 49.5 points, 14 assists

2012-2013.....big 3 combined for 49.5 points, 15 assists

They may well move on from the big 3, but it hasn't happened yet.




Also, if the Spurs rely on Splitter more....big mistake. It's not even his game to take more of the scoring load. He's a catch, pass or lay up guy off their pick and roll game....that's about it. If they start going to post ups for Splitter.....

[DMAVS41]

I don't equate playing more minutes to being featured more. If your point was Leonard is going to play more minutes, then agreed....but that's obvious.

Also, continue to move away from the Big 3?

2009-2010.....big 3 combined for 49.5 points, 14 assists

2012-2013.....big 3 combined for 49.5 points, 15 assists

They may well move on from the big 3, but it hasn't happened yet.




Also, if the Spurs rely on Splitter more....big mistake. It's not even his game to take more of the scoring load. He's a catch, pass or lay up guy off their pick and roll game....that's about it. If they start going to post ups for Splitter.....

No no no.

Leonard will be a better player and be featured more in the minutes he's playing. I just told you I expect him to get 2 to 3 more shots per 36 minutes...that isn't anything to do with minutes played. So I have no idea what you are talking about.

Also, the Spurs are clearly relying less on Manu and that will continue. His minutes have decreased each of the last 4 years in the playoffs. With 2 years ago seeing a noticeable drop.

Let me make it clear. Leonard will get more minutes and will produce better per minute he plays than he has in the past. He will get roughly 2 to 3 more shots per 36 minutes and probably will get 4 to 5 more touches per 36 minutes than he has in the past.

He will be featured more.

[Owl]

I never said you were wrong, I just think it's funny that you said losing him isn't a big deal because his PER and WS/48 are low.

There's much more to a player than made up, personally biased statistics. For example, Gary Neal is one of those players that can explode and hit 3-4-5 straight 3s. We saw that in the finals. Moreover, he's a guy who isn't afraid to throw up a 3 with 20 seconds left in the shot clock if he's hot.

And that's part of the reason why I think Pop didn't mind letting him go. He's not a fan of those types of players. They already re-signed one loose cannon in Ginobili so it's easy to see why Pop didn't want to keep Neal.

Not saying that players like Neal are ideal basketball players, but his hot shooting and fearlessness played a huge role in why SA was 28 seconds away from beating the Heat in the finals this year. Guys like him can be extremely valuable if utilized/disciplined correctly.

A PER of 11 and WS/48 of whatever doesn't tell you those things.

All stats are made up. Basketball doesn't exist in a state of nature.

Advanced metrics are indeed "contrived" in literal sense and reflect the values of their created. They reflect their creators personal preferences or biases. I would say biased in the generally understood sense though. It implies that they have an agenda (typically against) someone or something. These metrics are the opposite in that respect. Unlike casual observers or media analysts metric formulas treat everyone the same.

And Neal's ability to make threes is reflected in the metrics. Unless he gets extra points for making them consecutively that's not really all that important.

Gary Neal is replaceable. The metrics just give convient indication of what his level is and why his leaving is relatively insignificant. The only way it would be humorous (and evidently you found humor in it) was if his value was misrepresented by the metrics. All you've given is an ability to make (and presumably miss) consecutive 3s, and a willingness to take ill advised shots.

Value is contextual, and all numbers are imperfect (especially on D). But really why (what?) are you arguing, the metrics show Gary Neal isn't an important player. A couple of good games in the playoff (not a good playoffs overall) doesn't change that.

[D-Rose]

Belinelli is an upgrade on Neal. Spurs will be fine, too many haters..same ones every year. No team in the West looks much better than the Spurs are right now and let's not count out their FO in trades later on.

ConanNBC continues with making the worst threads possible.

[DMAVS41]

Neal sucks. All he can do is shoot. He's a great shooter, but that's the only game he has.

There are hundreds of better players than him they could sign for less money from Europe.

I agree about Manu and Splitter though. Manu is an ex player, and Splitter is trash.

About Belinelli though................that guy is an awful chucker with zero defense. No serious team would ever have him on their roster. The Spurs clearly signaled they have zero intent on winning a title when they added him.

To the bold.

The Spurs basically won the championship with Neal on the roster...and Belinelli is better than Neal. He improves the Spurs quite a bit...because Neal was playing like 20 minutes a game in the playoffs. So I don't get this logic at all.

Splitter is better than you say he is...and Manu will definitely see less minutes with Leonard and Belinelli getting more run as well.

The Spurs success will depend, as always, on Duncan. If Duncan plays next year at the same level he played last year. The Spurs will be in the hunt for the title again. And will probably have a great chance to win it...unless Parker chokes in the WCF or Finals like he did last year.

Again. If Duncan is the same player. The Spurs will be better this year. Leonard will get more minutes and will continue to improve. 14 Leonard will simply be better than 13 Leonard....safe to assume. Belinelli is better than Neal. This require less minutes out of an aging and erratic Manu. All logic would point to Splitter being better as well. How much is debatable, but even if it's a very slight improvement...it still matters. Hell, it's likely that Green is a better player next year as well. It's all about Duncan and Parker. If they are the same...the Spurs will be better.

[HarryCallahan]

Neal sucks. All he can do is shoot. He's a great shooter, but that's the only game he has.

There are hundreds of better players than him they could sign for less money from Europe.

I agree about Manu and Splitter though. Manu is an ex player, and Splitter is trash.

About Belinelli though................that guy is an awful chucker with zero defense. No serious team would ever have him on their roster. The Spurs clearly signaled they have zero intent on winning a title when they added him.

That Belli stuff is pretty unintelligent trolling, he's a better defender than Neal.

Splitter was the MVP of the ACB, if he's trash then all of Europe is trash. Great way o defend the minor leagues retard.

Splitter = ACB MVP
Splitter = Trash
ACB = Best National league in Europe

Therefore: European basketball = Trash.



Well done Euroleague, you've just proven everyone right. The Euroleague is inferior.

Belinelli is an upgrade on Neal. Spurs will be fine, too many haters..same ones every year. No team in the West looks much better than the Spurs are right now and let's not count out their FO in trades later on.

ConanNBC continues with making the worst threads possible.

Waaay too much truth in this post.

[oh the horror]

People seem to sleep on the fact that the west last season had several key injuries that aided the spurs in getting the the finals.


Several teams have improved, with health the spurs are not going back to the finals.


Cut it out with that "people sleeping on the spurs" shit already.


Outside of this past season they haven't done much in the postseason for several years now.

[HarryCallahan]

People seem to sleep on the fact that the west last season had several key injuries that aided the spurs in getting the the finals.


Several teams have improved, with health the spurs are not going back to the finals.


Cut it out with that "people sleeping on the spurs" shit already.


Outside of this past season they haven't done much in the postseason for several years now.

Besides Durant, I don't know what injuries you're talking about, and the Thunder were a mess even with him, and have gotten worse since.

Grizz- Stand pat

Clips- Personnel and coaching change, we'll see how it works out. Any team who's second best player is Blake isn't going to the finals (unless they have LeBron or Kobe)

GSW- Personnel changes, they got better on paper, but we'll see.

OKC- Lost Martin, gained no one.

Do you really think ANY of has teams has a better chance than the Spurs (who need I remind you were a rebound or missed shot away from winning the finals in 6)?

[HarryCallahan]

he gassed in game 7

You're kidding right? ISH logic: an unlucky loss= Gassed, disappointing, choking etc.