The Greatness of Oscar Robertson (an open letter to ISH members)

[kshutts1]

I like the "relative greatness" aspect of the OP.

IMO, how a player performs, relative to his peers, is a great indicator of greatness. Obviously, there are other factors, but "relative greatness" is often overlooked.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

He's widely regarded as a top 10-13 player. Ergo, he's ranked where he should be (based on accomplishments and player resume).

[Legends66NBA7]

He's widely regarded as a top 10-13 player. Ergo, he's ranked where he should be (based on accomplishments and player resume).

True, but I don't see Top 10. I just can't see him over the likes of some of the players I mentioned in my OP. Top 15 seems legit, though.

[Legends66NBA7]

Also, I think what effects Oscar Robertson's legacy is the fact on he and the NBA are on bad terms. You don't see much of his old games on the NBA Vault, ESPN Classic, etc... I know on Christmas games I've seen his numbers mentioned a lot, but he's very rarely marketed by the current media and NBA head office, which leaves the perception of him heavily skeptical.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

True, but I don't see Top 10. I just can't see him over the likes of some of the players I mentioned in my OP. Top 15 seems legit, though.

You and me both. I have him at 12, behind either Hakeem or Kobe (still not sure who I can bump out of my top 10 now that Lebron is playing unworldly ).

[OldSkoolball#52]

By these standards OP where would you rank Dominique Wilkins? Most people don't have him top 15, but he always was on a team that didn't have enough superstar help to truly compete for the title. His stats however were amazing.

I agree with this sentiment. Based on performance as an individual and positively impacting your team, I think u are 100% correct in saying 'Nique >> Kobe

[WillC]

I like the "relative greatness" aspect of the OP.

IMO, how a player performs, relative to his peers, is a great indicator of greatness. Obviously, there are other factors, but "relative greatness" is often overlooked.

Exactly.

For example, Hakeem Olajuwon was perhaps better than David Robinson, Patrick Ewing and even the young Shaquille O'Neal. However, the difference wasn't huge.

Whereas Oscar's relative greatness was astonishing, as seen by his statistical superiority over other guards, not just in terms of his scoring, but his rebounding and, particularly, his passing.

To put it into perspective, Rajon Rondo averaged 11.1apg this year. Therefore, LeBron James would have needed to average 14.5apg to have the same level of dominance over the second best passer as Oscar had over Guy Rogers in the 1960s.

And that's without mentioning Oscar's relative superiority at rebounding.

[Kblaze8855]

If you ever spot it...pick up the book Playmasters if you want to lean about theb usiness side of the old days. Dude doesnt know shit about basketball but has a lot of stories.

Which is why im fairly sure the NBA did hate Oscar. He wasnt personally responsible for the lawsuit that blocked the merger for years and resulted in free agency being allowed...but he was its face. And the president of the players union.

He and Spencer Haywood pissed people off for a long time.

[WillC]

If you ever spot it...pick up the book Playmasters if you want to lean about theb usiness side of the old days. Dude doesnt know shit about basketball but has a lot of stories.

Which is why im fairly sure the NBA did hate Oscar. He wasnt personally responsible for the lawsuit that blocked the merger for years and resulted in free agency being allowed...but he was its face. And the president of the players union.

He and Spencer Haywood pissed people off for a long time.

Spot on.

It didn't help that Oscar Robertson was arrogant, stubborn, hyper-competitive and, therefore, largely unlikeable. Just like Jordan and Kobe.

[colts19]

He is greater than the majority of those players because he was a better basketball player. It's as simple as that. He had more skill in more areas than all of the players you listed, other than perhaps LeBron James.

No other player can claim that, during their career, they were:

- The best passer in the league
- The best shooter in the league
- The best rebounder at their position
- A top 3 scorer in the league

Only Wilt Chamberlain can make similarly impressive claims (e.g. top scorer, top rebounder), followed by perhaps Larry Bird (best rebounder, passer and shooter at his position), LeBron James (best rebounder and passer at his position, one of the top 2 scorers) and Michael Jordan (best scorer and defender in the league), in no particular order.

Sure, other players had greater team success, but that is largely circumstantial.

Would Bill Russell have 11 rings if he had worse teammates? Would Kobe Bryant have 5 rings if he'd been without Shaquille O'Neal? Would Tim Duncan have 4 rings if he'd played for the Timberwolves instead of the Spurs?

Team success is just that; a team or group effort.

Individually, Oscar Robertson was clearly one of the top 10 players ever. Probably top 7.

Relative to the competition in their era, the best players ever, in chronological order, were Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan and LeBron James.

I grew up in Indiana and am the same age as Big O. My best friend played basketball in high school and played against Big O twice and it was like a man playing against boys. I saw him in person those two games and in a couple other state championship games and said for 20 years he was the best I have ever seen. Once Larry Bird came to Indiana State U. and I saw him as a red shirt, practicing the year he had to sit out, I said Larry was the only player close to Big O.

[WillC]

I grew up in Indiana and am the same age as Big O. My best friend played basketball in high school and played against Big O twice and it was like a man playing against boys. I saw him in person those two games and in a couple other state championship games and said for 20 years he was the best I have ever seen. Once Larry Bird came to Indiana State U. and I saw him as a red shirt, practicing the year he had to sit out, I said Larry was the only player close to Big O.

I think you got that spot on. Here are some others that agree with you...

Nat

[Owl]

He wasnt Wilt/Russell. But he wasnt far short of the next best thing. He was a first ballot hall of famer going in same season as Oscar and was named top 50 all time.

In terms of rebounds yes. But those 2 two were great defenders too. Lucas, not so much.

Hes called a stat padder. But so is Oscar. Its been said by some that people wanted to play with West not Oscar because if you blew one of his assists by missing an open shot he would stare you down and not pass to you for a while.

Confused here. Are the first two sentences meant to be relate to the last one? Does not passing to guys who blew layups generate more assists? If so surely only by wiser allocation of possessions. In any case I haven't heard anyone significant (maybe people on this board) call Oscar a stat padder.

OP a tad harsh on Lucas. But the general point of the Royals doing a rotten job surrounding Oscar with talent (Lucas and Larry Siegfried lost to ABL; Mel Daniels to ABA; Bob Boozer traded for nothing of value; Bob Love exposed to expansion; draft picks either wasted or never given minutes, not developed and given away for nothing) is accurate.

[WillC]

I will edit my article to be less critical of Jerry Lucas. He was a very talented shooter (for a big man) and rebounder, but he was a poor defender and, ultimately, not as talented as a sidekick compared to some others. For example, Jerry West had Elgin Baylor, Russell had Sam Jones, etc.

My point was as follows: Robertson's circumstances were less fortunate than other superstars of the time.

[Owl]

It's not Oscar Robertson's great that interests me, since I already am aware of all things said in the OP.

I just don't see how he's greater that players like Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, etc... I've seen people put him over these guys and I don't really see how is greatness trumps theirs. I don't even think he's that much greater than the likes of Jerry West, Moses Malone, Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkley, Elgin Baylor, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone, and Bob Pettit.

Keep in mind that I'm talking about greatness, not who played better. I can see people making cases for the likes of Dwyane Wade, John Havelick, Rick Barry, etc.... just of post season accomplishments. It would be tough to make a case for Barry, but there was a probably not a weaker team that won an NBA title with Barry as the main guy.

Anyways, Oscar Robertson's greatness probably still commands high regard, Top 15-20 range. Don't see him Top 10, though, especially not Top 5. That's when I feel he's overrated.

What's your distinction between the two?

[Legends66NBA7]

What's your distinction between the two?

I guess this is the best and simple way to say it:

"Asking which player is better (comparing their primes) and which player is greater (comparing their careers) are 2 different questions. Most people fail to make that distinction. One may have accomplished more, while the other may have actually been a better basketball player." - Gifted Mind