The Greatness of Oscar Robertson (an open letter to ISH members)

[WillC]

I wrote this as a direct consequence of the revisionist history I've seen recently on these message boards.

http://basketballjournalist.blogspot...-of-oscar.html

Oscar Robertson is, unfortunately, the victim of some harsh revisionist history that has taken place recently.

Let

[Dionysus]

All of that writing and copy/paste to let us know how weak his era was and how overrated he is.

LeBron in that era 47ppg 15reb 18ast.

[OldSkoolball#52]

I agree with you OP and because I value impact and contribution over team-achievement credentials, I have Oscar ranked much higher than Kobe on the alltime list. Any intelligent fan would feel the same.

[Miller for 3]

OP is a 13 year old who just discovered the Big O's Wikipedia page.

Lol @ only one 50 win season without Lew Alcindor carrying him. The 1960s version of Kevin Love, aka career loser and statpadder.

Durant in that era = 50/20/10 average his rookie year

[SilkkTheShocker]

All of that writing and copy/paste to let us know how weak his era was and how overrated he is.

LeBron in that era 47ppg 15reb 18ast.

Pretty much this. LeBron could fastbreak down the court twice before the other 9 players even got past halfcourt. I honestly believe a player would seriously get hurt trying to guard him. Some pasty white guy that smoke cigarettes at halftime and sells used cars in the offseason trying to guard the King?

[Legends66NBA7]

It's not Oscar Robertson's great that interests me, since I already am aware of all things said in the OP.

I just don't see how he's greater that players like Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, etc... I've seen people put him over these guys and I don't really see how is greatness trumps theirs. I don't even think he's that much greater than the likes of Jerry West, Moses Malone, Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkley, Elgin Baylor, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone, and Bob Pettit.

Keep in mind that I'm talking about greatness, not who played better. I can see people making cases for the likes of Dwyane Wade, John Havelick, Rick Barry, etc.... just of post season accomplishments. It would be tough to make a case for Barry, but there was a probably not a weaker team that won an NBA title with Barry as the main guy.

Anyways, Oscar Robertson's greatness probably still commands high regard, Top 15-20 range. Don't see him Top 10, though, especially not Top 5. That's when I feel he's overrated.

[sundizz]

By these standards OP where would you rank Dominique Wilkins? Most people don't have him top 15, but he always was on a team that didn't have enough superstar help to truly compete for the title. His stats however were amazing.

[Marchesk]

All of that writing and copy/paste to let us know how weak his era was and how overrated he is.

LeBron in that era 47ppg 15reb 18ast.

Negative on the assists. That stat wasn't inflated back then. Rebounding sounds reasonable. Points is speculative. He might get 40+. I wonder what position he would play and how many touches he would get.

[PHILA]

He is also the best pick & roll playmaker of all time. He is like Chris Paul with Penny Hardaway's post up game and Jordan's strength (though not as explosive). Also Big O is a lot smoother than CP without all the herky jerky deceptive moves and he didn't flop around. And his size as a 6'6, 220 lb PG gives him even more options in the two man game with Jerry Lucas. Or Wayne Embry, who while a limited player, was very effective at setting bone crushing picks. Too bad they never played with a 3 point line to space the floor and without Bill Russell waiting in the paint to break it up. In this era would dominate now even more than he did then. All the floor spacing would be like heaven, and then on top of that the guard is not allowed to hand check him. He also had a unique shot release like Bird that was nearly unblockable. I would pair him with Kevin Love to have the deadliest two man game in the NBA, much like he had with Lucas. Just give them shooters and an interior defensive presence and you have a very strong contender.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9Gbb9_XAtU&t=16m52s


In the video example below, look how he bumps off powerful forward Chet Walker with great ease and grace. In the following play, Wali Jones (the top defensive guard in the NBA) is completely helpless on the baseline against Oscar, who makes him look almost like a high school kid. Seeing as Wilt had to watch Dierking (who could shoot from the outside), once Oscar had him all by himself, it was over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aECiYcdvIE&t=3m16s





In keeping track of Bill Russell and Boston's defense in the available game footage, the Royals with Oscar shot 7/8 (87.5%) in pick & roll plays where Russell was involved in the play. The other opponents shot 2/11 (18%) in the same situation.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6kIu34Qsc&t=22m45s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6kIu34Qsc&t=12m55s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6kIu34Qsc&t=11m10s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6kIu34Qsc&t=14m07s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6kIu34Qsc&t=24m47s *How many players today can make this shot from this close a distance and angle?





He had a very quick release on his shot as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTs918TZ-qo&t=9m58s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buIzpvJDMis&t=18m15s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HE6kIu34Qsc&t=12m55s







Sports Illustrated - October 24, 1966

CINCINNATI

The pick-and-roll is a simple play, even used by the kids at the YMCA in half-court games. With somewhat better personnel, the Royals dare you to stop it. Oscar Robertson gets the pick, and Jerry Lucas takes the roll (right). Lucas, guarded by a big forward, picks Oscar's man, or slows him down, to make the forward commit himself. If the big man switches to Robertson, Lucas has a smaller defender and rolls for the basket and a pass from Oscar. If there is no switch. Robertson zips past with at least a half-step advantage and a one-on-one situation with a guard down near the baseline. "If I can get him to that spot," says Coach Jack McMahon, "he's unstoppable."




The Big O: My Life, My Times, My Game - Oscar Robertson

[WillC]

I just don't see how he's greater that players like Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Hakeem Olajuwon, Kobe Bryant, LeBron James, etc... I've seen people put him over these guys and I don't really see how is greatness trumps theirs. I don't even think he's that much greater than the likes of Jerry West, Moses Malone, Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkley, Elgin Baylor, Dirk Nowitzki, Karl Malone, and Bob Pettit.

He is greater than the majority of those players because he was a better basketball player. It's as simple as that. He had more skill in more areas than all of the players you listed, other than perhaps LeBron James.

No other player can claim that, during their career, they were:

- The best passer in the league
- The best shooter in the league
- The best rebounder at their position
- A top 3 scorer in the league

Only Wilt Chamberlain can make similarly impressive claims (e.g. top scorer, top rebounder), followed by perhaps Larry Bird (best rebounder, passer and shooter at his position), LeBron James (best rebounder and passer at his position, one of the top 2 scorers) and Michael Jordan (best scorer and defender in the league), in no particular order.

Sure, other players had greater team success, but that is largely circumstantial.

Would Bill Russell have 11 rings if he had worse teammates? Would Kobe Bryant have 5 rings if he'd been without Shaquille O'Neal? Would Tim Duncan have 4 rings if he'd played for the Timberwolves instead of the Spurs?

Team success is just that; a team or group effort.

Individually, Oscar Robertson was clearly one of the top 10 players ever. Probably top 7.

Relative to the competition in their era, the best players ever, in chronological order, were Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan and LeBron James.

[Marchesk]

Relative to the competition in their era, the best players ever, in chronological order, were Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan and LeBron James.

Missing West and Kobe at the SG position.

[WillC]

By these standards OP where would you rank Dominique Wilkins? Most people don't have him top 15, but he always was on a team that didn't have enough superstar help to truly compete for the title. His stats however were amazing.

Based on his ability (and ignoring factors beyond his control, i.e. his teammates, coach, etc), the only players better than him during his peak in the late 1980s were Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley and Patrick Ewing. Put Wilkins on the Celtics instead of Larry Bird and they'd probably still win at least one championship, massively changing Wilkins' legacy.

In terms of talent, he's definitely a top 50 player of all-time. Probably more like top 40.

[Marchesk]

Pretty much this. LeBron could fastbreak down the court twice before the other 9 players even got past halfcourt.

Unless Russell or young Wilt were on the court. I'm thinking Gus Johnson was pretty fast too. West wasn't slow either.

[Miller for 3]

He is greater than the majority of those players because he was a better basketball player. It's as simple as that. He had more skill in more areas than all of the players you listed, other than perhaps LeBron James.

No other player can claim that, during their career, they were:

- The best passer in the league
- The best shooter in the league
- The best rebounder at their position
- A top 3 scorer in the league

Only Wilt Chamberlain can make similarly impressive claims (e.g. top scorer, top rebounder), followed by perhaps Larry Bird (best rebounder, passer and shooter at his position), LeBron James (best rebounder and passer at his position, one of the top 2 scorers) and Michael Jordan (best scorer and defender in the league), in no particular order.

Sure, other players had greater team success, but that is largely circumstantial.

Would Bill Russell have 11 rings if he had worse teammates? Would Kobe Bryant have 5 rings if he'd been without Shaquille O'Neal? Would Tim Duncan have 4 rings if he'd played for the Timberwolves instead of the Spurs?

Team success is just that; a team or group effort.

Individually, Oscar Robertson was clearly one of the top 10 players ever. Probably top 7.

Relative to the competition in their era, the best players ever, in chronological order, were Oscar Robertson, Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan and LeBron James.

LOL. He played against 6 foot white guys who chain smoked during halftime and worked as movie theater ushers in the offseason. Being the best rebounding guard while playing against 5-10 white guys, WOW!

Also Duncan, both Malones, KG, Dirk, Pettit, Dr. J, Barry, Hakeem and Shaq > Lebrick. Learn some history kiddo

[Kblaze8855]

While I mostly agree that Oscar is rated as an elite player by everyone but people online...I do have issue with this:

Had Oscar Robertson been fortuitous enough to play with another superstar throughout his career – a luxury afforded the majority of the NBA’s greatest players, as shown above – then perhaps Oscar’s post-season success would be remembered differently.

You glossed over Jerry Lucas like a nobody stat padder but really...he was one of the best players in the world.

He, Kareem, and Lebron are the only two time national Mr.Basketballs(Hs award).....he was second behind Oscar himself for college player of the year and won it back to back after Oscar got drafted...and while he was doing it Hondo who you mention as a superstar with Bill...was HIS sidekick.

He came to the league and off the top of my head was one of the only 20/20 players ever(Im thinking him Wilt, Thurmond, and Pettit), led the nba in shooting percentage, and was all NBA first team at least 3 times sometimes ahead of the likes of Hondo and Bob Pettit.

He wasnt Wilt/Russell. But he wasnt far short of the next best thing. He was a first ballot hall of famer going in same season as Oscar and was named top 50 all time.

Repping Oscar doesnt mean Lucas wasnt a superstar. Red Auerbach didnt offer to buy his contract for 200,000 dollars(At the time double what Wilt and russell made) and get turned down because Jerry wasnt big time.

Jerry Lucas was so major after his college career ive read claims hes a big reason the NBA was able to get national TV deals. Part of it was his college and HS career(He broke Wilts HS scoring record). But he was a great player.

Hes called a stat padder. But so is Oscar. Its been said by some that people wanted to play with West not Oscar because if you blew one of his assists by missing an open shot he would stare you down and not pass to you for a while.

Both of them were still great players.