Tim/Shaq lived on another level than Kobe

[Heavincent]

And Kobe wearing down? He wore down in 2011. He was actually hurt in 2010 against the Thunder and was very fortunate to have enough help to win that series. He played well in 12...although he abandoned any defense in the playoffs completely. And then this year he missed the playoffs.

lol at the revisionist history here. If you actually watched the 2010 Thunder series, you'd know that Kobe's defense on Westbrook was probably the biggest reason they won the series.

And you're really gonna punish Kobe for having a freak injury after he carried his team into the playoffs last year? Give me a break

[DMAVS41]

So Gino...

You claimed Kobe was the 3rd best on his team in that game 7...I then showed the facts (23pts 15reb 10pts 4th quarter>>20pts 5reb 6pts 4th quarter) that he was actually the best on the floor. That you conceded and only responded with "Artest scored 6 in the 4th lol"...

Then you said our Frontline was stacked (and on other occasions you've said one of the most stacked All-time ) I then showed you the bench/role player type weak numbers Odom/Bynum had that completely wipes that theory out of the water....You then conceded that "ok outside of Gasol they wasn't stacked" which is truthful.

Now ur on the whole "Gasol is a great 2nd option" In which you are completely right. This fits my whole point being it was Kobe/Gasol and role players...Not a "stacked" team, but a team with a All-time great and Allstar level second option. (Something CP3 had in David West).

And now you jump from all that to "Duncan had a better game 7 than Kobe".....

For a whole team to be stacked, there has to be more than 2 players putting up "Alltime great stacked" worthy numbers...In the Lakers case, only Kobe/Gasol put up stacked type numbers.

Basically all the arguments I had in this thread with you, I proved my point and you conceded.

As for your other points vs other posters: I can see wat ur trying to say...It isn't right that Duncans teammates gets a pass. They shouldn't. Just like Bynum and Odom dropping bench player numbers during those runs, we still won, but they shouldn't get a pass, nor should they stupidly get placed in the "Alltime stacked" placing that only slow ass retarded Kobe haters trying to discredit Bryant does.

You yell out double standards but ur the King of them.

I'll go as simple as possible.

1 - I don't think Kobe was better than Artest in that game. There is no proving either of wrong or right. I thought Artest was really good...and his defense was great. I think he had a handful of steals as well if I remember correctly. But if you want to go just on stats;

Kobe's game score was 9.9
Artest's game score was 13.0

So you haven't proven anything actually.

2. Gasol is part of the team...is he not? So I don't understand what you are arguing. Were the Lakers stacked outside of Kobe/Gasol? Of course not. But if you include the entire team...absolutely stacked and Gasol/Odom/Bynum absolutely constitute a stacked front line.

I have no idea why you would remove Kobe's best player from his supporting cast. But I think we agree here...

And I never said they were the most stacked team of all time. I said they were stacked relative to the competition and were clear favorites in every series they played in 09 and 10 other than the 10 Celtics series. Their margin for error was pretty big until the 10 finals actually...and I even listed Kobe's greatness as the number 1 reason for calling them stacked. Also, you can't just ignore Phil Jackson...that simply matters...and probably matters even more than I factor in to be honest. Also, you are selling Bynum short in 10. he averaged 9/7 in 24 minutes per game. Is that great? Hell no, but it's good and it mattered. That is pretty good production in limited minutes. Just so illustrate this...Tyson Chandler averaged 8/9 in 32 minutes. Obviously Chandler was better and helped on defense much more, but if I have to ****ing hear how Chandler was the reason the Mavs won...then acting like Bynum was a non factor in 2010 is just a joke. So please calm down and read for a change.

Here is the best way I can explain it to you. I don't think the Spurs were stacked last year. But remove Parker and replace him with 2010 Kobe? Absolutely stacked. Kobe factors into the situation for me and I think you have removed Kobe/Gasol from your situation...so I really feel like we are debating completely different things here and actually agree.

3. I don't know how to explain it any better...and it looks like you finally get it. The double standard is that Duncan's teammates get a pass and are propped up constantly while we all know if Gasol performed like Parker in games 6 and 7 of a NBA finals...the media and this site would go nuts on him. Nobody, I mean nobody, outside me and a few others went hard on Parker...it didn't fit the narrative that the media and posters like tpols tried to push...so they just ignored it.

4. The talk about Duncan's game 6 and 7 was in response to a poster claiming that Duncan gets a free pass for losing. And I disagreed. He brought it up...not me. I was just responding to him. Nowhere did I say Duncan in 13 was better than Kobe in 10. Nowhere did I say Duncan was better in the finals in 13 than Kobe was in 10. All I said was that Kobe's teammates performed better in that game 7 than Duncan's did...FACT...and that Duncan performed better than Kobe did....FACT

And if we are using stats...this should illustrate it;

Kobe game score of 9.9
Duncan game score of 21.3

Now...I won't even go as far to say that Duncan was twice as good, but he clearly played better.

Oh...one final note on those game 7's;

Parker game score of 6.2
Gasol game score of 19.2

And the fact that Boston's defense was better makes Parker's game even worse than the stats...and Gasol's even better. Which I think is also true with Duncan and Kobe...and why I don't think the stats fully represent how each played (Duncan was not twice as good as Kobe..etc.)

[longtime lurker]

Lol Kobe the only player that could get hated on for actually winning

[tpols]

I'll go as simple as possible.

1 - I don't think Kobe was better than Artest in that game. There is no proving either of wrong or right. I thought Artest was really good...and his defense was great. I think he had a handful of steals as well if I remember correctly. But if you want to go just on stats;

Kobe's game score was 9.9
Artest's game score was 13.0

So you haven't proven anything actually.

Kobe saw all the double teams on offense.. everyone on both sides of the ball was shooting like shit. Artest was jacking up long jumpers all game and for the most part was bricking everything until a few timely shots he made in the fourth quarter.

Again.. Artest was in Shane Battier mode. Feeding off the work of others shooting long jumpers when the defense collapsed. Offense isnt just how you shot. Theres 20 some odd seconds where things happen before the shot goes up.. Dribbling passing running the offense. Artest never ran anything. He was either bulldozing his way into the paint bricking layups or throwing up long jumpers.. of which he shot 7-18 for the game. Better shooting than Kobe but did he create more offense? Kobe actually got to the line 8+ times and was the main distraction for the defense.

Comparing their defensive contributions.. they both played very good on that side of the ball, Metta a little better, but whatever defensive advantage he had was nullified by the fact that Kobe outrebounded him 15 to 5.

3. I don't know how to explain it any better...and it looks like you finally get it. The double standard is that Duncan's teammates get a pass and are propped up constantly while we all know if Gasol performed like Parker in games 6 and 7 of a NBA finals...the media and this site would go nuts on him. Nobody, I mean nobody, outside me and a few others went hard on Parker...it didn't fit the narrative that the media and posters like tpols tried to push...so they just ignored it.

When are Parker or Manu propped up constantly? Have manu and parker ever been propped up to the extent Gasol/Odom/Bynum have? Nope.. not even close.

We never ever hear about the spurs having one of the best perimeter attacks in the entire league.. two great ballhandlers and some of the best lights out shooting of all time.

We never ever heard the term 'duncan was carried by his backcourt' even when the spurs went OFF against Golden State.. broke their own playoff record for threes made against memphis and then shattered the finals record for 3s in less games than it took the previous holder to do against miami

Never once was it mentioned that Duncan was carried..

4. The talk about Duncan's game 6 and 7 was in response to a poster claiming that Duncan gets a free pass for losing. And I disagreed. He brought it up...not me. I was just responding to him. Nowhere did I say Duncan in 13 was better than Kobe in 10. Nowhere did I say Duncan was better in the finals in 13 than Kobe was in 10. All I said was that Kobe's teammates performed better in that game 7 than Duncan's did...FACT...and that Duncan performed better than Kobe did....FACT

Youre missing the entire point. Its not just about comparing Kobe's game 7 in 2010 to Duncans in 2013. Thats not what the poster said.

The poster said that if Kobe had been in Duncans position and had good game 6s and game 7s but lost, he would still get a shitload of criticism. Which is true. Guy averaged 32/6/6 against Pheonix and those series are all held against him.

Just like Dirk has averaged ridiculous numbers in some series and lost, and those series are all held against him big time by a lot of people. He wouldve been known unfairly as a career choker if not for 2011.. and you know that as you argued for days and days to try and reverse that rep.

We saw Bron put up 25/10/10 type games and then kind of choke at the end of game 6 to put his team in a serious position to lose.. if that wouldve happened, we wouldve heard nonstop how bad bron is and how much of a loser he is. I probably wouldve been the first to say it (and unfairly)

And you can look up brons game 6 'gamescore' bet that shit was through the roof.. wouldnt have mattered, if he were to lose.

If the Heat were down 2 points under a minute left and Bron missed a sure layup to tie.. holy shit. Place would explode. Same with Kobe.. place would absolutely explode.

And the fact that Boston's defense was better makes Parker's game even worse than the stats...and Gasol's even better. Which I think is also true with Duncan and Kobe...and why I don't think the stats fully represent how each played (Duncan was not twice as good as Kobe..etc.)

No it doesnt.

Because Parker was being hounded by the best perimeter defense in the league and had their best defender, Bron, on him in all the important stretches.. while duncan was going up against a lollipop frontline not expected to create for his teammates in nearly the same fashion. One had tons of resistance and huge responsibility while the other had little responsibility and was facing the soft spot in the defense.

With Boston, Kobe was honed in on, and Pau had single coverage with a lone post defender all game. Parker was sitting at top of the key with the best perimeter defense in the world waiting for him.

Both Parker and Kobe were expected to create against tremendous pressure. Duncan and Pau were largely beneficiaries of their play and duncan at least had a softer frontline to go against than Pau did(which is why I said Pau was better than Duncan both being secoind options but Spurs were more well rounded outside of this first second option talk).

[KyleKong]

Interesting Stats by OP and TonyMontana.

Shaq and Duncan are top 5 or 6 GOATs.

Kobe is just a ball chucking rapist.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe saw all the double teams on offense.. everyone on both sides of the ball was shooting like shit. Artest was jacking up long jumpers all game and for the most part was bricking everything until a few timely shots he made in the fourth quarter.

Again.. Artest was in Shane Battier mode. Feeding off the work of others shooting long jumpers when the defense collapsed. Offense isnt just how you shot. Theres 20 some odd seconds where things happen before the shot goes up.. Dribbling passing running the offense. Artest never ran anything. He was either bulldozing his way into the paint bricking layups or throwing up long jumpers.. of which he shot 7-18 for the game. Better shooting than Kobe but did he create more offense? Kobe actually got to the line 8+ times and was the main distraction for the defense.

Comparing their defensive contributions.. they both played very good on that side of the ball, Metta a little better, but whatever defensive advantage he had was nullified by the fact that Kobe outrebounded him 15 to 5.




When are Parker or Manu propped up constantly? Have manu and parker ever been propped up to the extent Gasol/Odom/Bynum have? Nope.. not even close.

We never ever hear about the spurs having one of the best perimeter attacks in the entire league.. two great ballhandlers and some of the best lights out shooting of all time.

We never ever heard the term 'duncan was carried by his backcourt' even when the spurs went OFF against Golden State.. broke their own playoff record for threes made against memphis and then shattered the finals record for 3s in less games than it took the previous holder to do against miami

Never once was it mentioned that Duncan was carried..



Youre missing the entire point. Its not just about comparing Kobe's game 7 in 2010 to Duncans in 2013. Thats not what the poster said.

The poster said that if Kobe had been in Duncans position and had good game 6s and game 7s but lost, he would still get a shitload of criticism. Which is true. Guy averaged 32/6/6 against Pheonix and those series are all held against him.

Just like Dirk has averaged ridiculous numbers in some series and lost, and those series are all held against him big time by a lot of people. He wouldve been known unfairly as a career choker if not for 2011.. and you know that as you argued for days and days to try and reverse that rep.

We saw Bron put up 25/10/10 type games and then kind of choke at the end of game 6 to put his team in a serious position to lose.. if that wouldve happened, we wouldve heard nonstop how bad bron is and how much of a loser he is. I probably wouldve been the first to say it (and unfairly)

And you can look up brons game 6 'gamescore' bet that shit was through the roof.. wouldnt have mattered, if he were to lose.

If the Heat were down 2 points under a minute left and Bron missed a sure layup to tie.. holy shit. Place would explode. Same with Kobe.. place would absolutely explode.


No it doesnt.

Because Parker was being hounded by the best perimeter defense in the league and had their best defender, Bron, on him in all the important stretches.. while duncan was going up against a lollipop frontline not expected to create for his teammates in nearly the same fashion. One had tons of resistance and huge responsibility while the other had little responsibility and was facing the soft spot in the defense.

With Boston, Kobe was honed in on, and Pau had single coverage with a lone post defender all game. Parker was sitting at top of the key with the best perimeter defense in the world waiting for him.

Both Parker and Kobe were expected to create against tremendous pressure. Duncan and Pau were largely beneficiaries of their play and duncan at least had a softer frontline to go against than Pau did(which is why I said Pau was better than Duncan both being secoind options but Spurs were more well rounded outside of this first second option talk).

That is a big way of saying that Kobe is better than Artest and faces more attention. Of course. If you want to grade their performances on that curve...then I agree with you. But I think that is a very slippery slope argument and basically very difficult to ever fault guys like Dirk, Kobe, and Lebron...etc. because they have to carry such a huge burden at times. You are getting close to being one of those Lebron fans that claims his 11 finals wasn't bad. And the logic is the same as you are using...the entire Mavs were almost solely focused to stop Lebron and they didn't care about Wade or Bosh. Which is generally true...and even still Lebron was able to produce well statistically with a solid overall game. It's a BS argument...but your thinking makes it more than reasonable. Lebron faced at least 3 times as much attention as any other Heat player did. That is already built in when he talk about superstars...I don't like that line of thinking at all.

I also think you vastly under-rate Duncan's impact. Which is what has always truly made him great in my opinion. I agree Parker had a tougher matchup, but Parker isn't doing anything defensively while Duncan is anchoring the whole damn thing and making it work at an elite level.

You were propping up Parker hugely all playoffs...GTFO with this shit. And people in the media were calling Parker the 3rd best player in the league. There was a clear narrative trying to be created and it made no sense to people that have actually watched Parker play more than a handful of games. He's really good...really ****ing good, but he's never been a superstar type player. Ask Spurs fans...they know.

And I don't think Duncan has gotten a pass...but even that statement is absurd given how well he performed in the two biggest games of the year. But also...Duncan at age 37 and Kobe at age 31 are clearly held to different standards...and rightfully so.

To the point about missing the layup. First of all...Duncan was hammered on here, but that doesn't even really matter. Nobody has ever claimed and gone on and on about how clutch Duncan is/was. You seem to not understand how much fans play a role in this. Remember when I first posted here a few years ago? The entire talk was that Kobe was by far the most clutch player in the league...best on game winners...etc. That isn't fully gone yet...even though we've proven it completely false...you still see Kobe stans rant and rave about the clutch god Kobe. But now...it's brought up because Kobe has performed so poorly on game winning situations historically in the playoffs compared to others as he's now 7-28. So him missing is of course a bigger deal. I have explained this now a number of times.

If current Kobe played as well as Duncan did in a game 6 and 7 in the NBA finals....he'd be getting ****ing praised endlessly and his teammates, if they played like Parker, Manu, and Green...would be getting rocked.

So it works both ways.

[Anaximandro1]

Kobe's playoff stats before and after the rule change are dramatically different.

Kobe had an individual offensive rating below 110 and TS% at 52% from 2000 to 2004 despite never being the main focus of the defense.

On his own Kobe was probably a 50% TS type player with an offensive rating below 105... Iverson-esque.

So during his first 8 years at the Lakers,Kobe at his best was the second coming of Clyde Drexler,in terms of impact.



The rule change boosted productivity of the perimeter players when Kobe took over the helm of the Lakers in 2005, therefore secondary players like Nash and Kobe became MVP candidates.

After 2007, everything came together for Kobe.The rules changed,the big men who dominated league had aged,Lebron and Wade were stuck on mediocre teams,Pau Gasol came to town and Kevin Garnett blew out his knee,putting an end to the Celtics chances of defending the title in 2009 (same thing happened to Duncan in 2000)...the NBA hype machine and the powerful Lakers organization completed the manufacturing process.

In order to win a title, your players need to use their possessions efficiently as well as regain possession of the ball through rebounding and steals. Per game numbers are skewed by the pace of the game,so they're inadequate.

The best players are high usage players who put up great tempo-free /per possession stats.Of course,advanced metrics are far from perfect because they're still distorted by the strengths and weaknesses of your team.However they're not biased towards/against a particular player.

For some odd reason, advanced stats are systematically biased against Kobe.

-Jordan/LeBron/Wade annihilate Kobe in nearly every advanced metric.




-Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem annihilate Kobe in nearly every advanced metric.However,ORtg (points produced per 100 possessions) is close because Bryant took advantage of the rule changes.Kobe was a vastly inferior scorer prior to 2005.



-Dirk/Barkley annihilate Kobe in nearly every advanced metric.




-Robinson/Garnett/Karl Malone are in the same ballpark as Kobe, in terms of advanced stats.




-Don't forget Kareem/Wilt/Magic/Bird/Erving/Oscar/West...at least Kobe is better than Iverson and Webber.

WS/48 -- an estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player per 48 minutes

PER -- a measure of per-minute production standardized such that the league average is 15

ORtg -- an estimate of points produced per 100 possessions.

DRtg -- an estimate of points allowed per 100 possessions.

TS% -- a measure of shooting effeciency that takes into account 2-point field goals, 3-point field goals, and free throws.

USG% - an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

TRB% -- an estimate of the percentage of available rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.

ORB% -- an estimate of the percentage of available offensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.

DRB% -- an estimate of the percentage of available defensive rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor.

AST% -- an estimate of the percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while he was on the floor.

STL% -- an estimate of the percentage of opponent possessions that end with a steal by the player while he was on the floor.

BLK% -- an estimate of the percentage of opponent two-point field goal attempts blocked by the player while he was on the floor.

[riseagainst]

Intersting post.

Agree with a lot,disagre with some of what you say.

Agree
-Shaq/Duncan by far the two best player of the past 15 years
-LeBron is third
-Kobe is in the Wade tier, literally the only thing seperating them is longevity and rings(the later being a result of him having the GOAT coach and GOAT frontcourts on his team)
-KGs soft offensive game prevents him from being Shaq/Duncan level. He is actually softer than Dirk offensively despite him being a loud black and Dirk a white euro.

Disagree
-Dirk is a level above Kobe/Wade/KG. Carried Dallas to 50+ wins every year despite never having a consistant second star. None of those other guys were winning playoff series without another HOFer.
-Jordan isn't the GOAT. Hes a really rich mans Kobe. Best scorer ever, but he still doesn't effect the game as much as bigger players that dominate on both ends like Shaq/Duncan/LeBron.

[Jacks3]

Kobe's TS% relative to league average has been about the same before and after the rule changes.

Stop making shit up.

[Optimus Prime]

PER and WS

[riseagainst]

OP, you know that DRTG is dependent upon the team's defensive rating right? So bigs naturally have higher DRTGs than guards...