I was watching Shaq ravage the 76ers in the 2001 finals and it forces me to ask.....

[Kblaze8855]

.....are we just all full of shit on the issue of who the best players are?

And I dont mean that to say Shaq is the GOAT(though....).

Im asking about bigmen in general.

First let me show you the bloodbath I was watching:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKICLZfKMG0

And its not like that was the least bit unusual for him. He did go out and have 60/20 just because it was his birthday. Most of the time he was just kinda playing in the flow.


Now and then I read all time rankings with a Kobe or Lebron type up top 7-8.

And I have to ask myself....

If I throw them into this mix and pick someone to actually build a team around:

Shaq
Moses
David robinson
Wilt
Barkley
Hakeem
Ewing
Dirk
Duncan
Walton
Russell
Karl
Artis Gilmore
KG
Webber
Kareem


There are 11 people there id have to at least consider taking over either of them.


Shaq in his prime was straight up LLcoolJfromIntoodeeping ( http://youtu.be/7UGYADwPc0E?t=1m28s ) these dudes. Just ****ing em with the pool stick screaming "Love it!".

Hakeem could realistically drop 40, prevent 6-7 offensive rebounds by winning a battle for the ball, reject or alter 11 otherwise easy shots, get 2-3 steals, prevent 12 drives from happening in the first place, and find 5 guys for wide open 3s in a night.

He could have a role to play in the scoring or prevention of 60-70 points and not even seem to have anything like a career game. Dude did average 33/10/5 with 3 blocks a game on a title run. He had so many games with 5 blocks and 3-4 steals that it wasnt the least bit noteworthy. He was putting up 24/14/ 5 blocks and 2 steals a game one season.

Moses Malones and drobs game logs read like a video game played on rookie.

These are the only NON 40 point games Kareem had one playoff run:


27/16/7
28/14/7/4
36/26
30/10/5
21/20/8/7
30/17/4


Those are his only non 40 point games those playoffs. And he had 17, 18, 18, and 19 rebounds in the 40+ point games. 9 blocks in one of them.




It may not be "fair" to guards but bigmen do have a natural advantage. They play right by the basket so they anchor defenses and get easier shots.

As good a defender as a Bruce bowen could be he cant literally prevent the basket from getting attacked.

Shaq....

In 20 years...I saw him dunked on maybe twice. Only once in a physical straight up attacking you on the drive kinda way. Coleman. In his rookie season. And next time Shaq played the Nets:



He literally tore the backboard down.

A couple guys dunked...by him. Patterson dunked on him on a putback.

But guards were not just running into the lane to climb Mt.shaq and prove a point like on every other bigman.

Thats an intimidation you cant put a price on.


Your Shaq...Hakeems...Kareems and Wilts. Even some a notch down like pre injury Ewing...Drob.

These people can have such an impact on the floor im not sure most of them arent being unfairly overlooked in the issue of best players....just because its sexier to some to be great...and small.

Ive heard it said here that I had a bigman bias once when I think I said id take some star center over Kobe.

I dont see it that way.

I see it as....being real about what I can expect from a great bigman. And how even a lower tier great can do more for my team than a guard often ranked higher all time.

I dont have much trouble seeing David robinson winning 55-60 games on the Cavs or winning a ring with the Heat(maybe not this years....11? Sure he could...still had the real Wade).

I dont find it unlikely that Hakeem or even Duncan when teamed with Scottie Pippen could form a dynasty that won just as much.


Doesnt make all of them equals.

But it has to mean....something.

If may not be "fair". But the bigman advantage is reality.

Guards can do numbers. We are all aware of them.

But two roughly equal players...the bigman can generally do more to make a team win I believe.

Doesnt mean its shown on every team. Coaching plays a factor. Talent. All that.

But generally speaking the bigman advantage is enough to make up for the guard being higher ranked all time to me.

Lebron is the best player right now. Easily.

But that doesnt mean it would be an easy choice to take him over a number of centers who will never get a top 10 ranking. Especially to play this scum at the 5 now.

You could justify taking like.....6-7 bigmen over virtually everyone ever if you throw out the legacy.

In an all time NBA draft....I suspect a lot more bigmen would go high than moderns fans would guess. Other than MJ going top 3 im not sure how it plays out.

But I dont think it would look very much like an all time greatest player list.

I suspect some of that "Always take the bigman" would happen and we might watch the likes of Drob, Moses, And Ewing shoot past a number of guys we rank over them now.

[IllegalD]

Debatable. I guess it depends on your definition of "better".

To me it's more impressive when a "little guy"/perimeter player is able to dominate and lead his team to championships as the best player. (MJ, LeBron, Isiah, Kobe, etc).

An elite defensive perimeter player will NEVER have as much impact on a game/team than an elite defensive bigman. That has to do mostly with size than anything. A perimeter player can only guard one guy, whereas a bigman can change an entire team's defense.

So you would pick all those bigmen (some of them who never won anything) over Kobe/LeBron. But MJ is somehow exempt?

Sounds more like you have pro-Jordan bias as opposed to pro-bigman bias.

[PickernRoller]

I remember him getting schooled by Hakeem too. But he was young then although he was more athletic back then too.

Let's get real, Mutombo was way over his head at that time + kinda injured if I recall. However, no way of stopping Shaq anyway you put it. Too big, too strong.

[Kblaze8855]

I didnt say all. I said id have to consider...11. Over Jordan id have to consider.....6. Im not saying id take 6. Or that id take 11 over Lebron/Kobe.

Im saying there are people id have to take into consideration. Some of them not near any of those 3 on an all time list.

[unbreakable]

.

Lebron is the best player right now. Easily.

lebron has a questionable midrange game.. still an average post game, not a legitimate 3 pt threat.. yet he's the best EASILY?



kobe, durant, melo, duncan, rondo, rose all do more with less.. lebron needs the most stacked squad of the modern era in the weakest conference of all time to win. yea.. but hes the best EASILY.. keep choking on his chorizo, blaze

[SilkkTheShocker]

lebron has a questionable midrange game.. still an average post game, not a legitimate 3 pt threat.. yet he's the best EASILY?



kobe, durant, melo, duncan, rondo, rose all do more with less.. lebron needs the most stacked squad of the modern era in the weakest conference of all time to win. yea.. but hes the best EASILY.. keep choking on his chorizo, blaze

Agreed. What would LeBron do without Wade's 15ppg and Bosh's 12ppg this postseason?

[305Baller]

Shaq is the most dominant ever.

[Kblaze8855]

You dont care for Lebrons midrange game and 3 point shot but you mention Rondo?

Anyway....

Im gonna disregard you until I forget this happened/who you are. Not an argument worth having.

[unbreakable]

Agreed. What would LeBron do without Wade's 15ppg and Bosh's 12ppg this postseason?

bosh dropped 30/15 and the gamewinner on the spurs without lebron.. lebrons ball dominance and inability to play off the ball makes his teammates worse.. plain and simple (unless youre a spotup 3 pt shooter then lebron makes you better)

[unbreakable]

Im gonna disregard you until I forget this happened/who you are. Not an argument worth having.

same with the lebron flop thread.. keep hiding bro

[ILLsmak]

That's why I get so mad when people drool over Bron or Kobe. I remember watching Shaq his whole career and I knew what he could do against any legend or in any era. He was just that good. But I never even though of calling him GOAT or even GOAT big.

All I said was he could match up with anyone. I think that's the best thing you can say about any player. We'll never know who is better unless they go at each other. It's like trying to predict what will happen on a blind date.

-Smak

[Orlando Magic]

Yeah... perimeter players are overrated.

Bigs will never get the credit they deserve because their games aren't as asethetically pleasing and people can't relate to bigs because most of the time they themselves aren't big.

There's no way I'm taking Jordan or LeBron in an all time draft over some of those guys. No way.

Bigs aren't flashy. People don't like it. They want to feel on some level they could get out there and give it a go... even though they couldn't.

[SilkkTheShocker]

bosh dropped 30/15 and the gamewinner on the spurs without lebron.. lebrons ball dominance and inability to play off the ball makes his teammates worse.. plain and simple (unless youre a spotup 3 pt shooter then lebron makes you better)

You are honestly going to brag about a regular season game? You got nothing buddy. LeBron won a championship with Bosh having the same impact as Birdman. Hell, even Birdman had more points in Game 7

[kennethgriffin]

you dont judge all time players based on "who youd pick first"

people pick centers first because theres a way bigger drop off from the best centers to the average centers

while there is a way bigger abundance of solid/really good guards, small forwards

if you miss out on a kobe, lebron or jordan. you can still survive with a 23ppg solid left over player with good defense


but if you miss out on a legendary center that averages 30ppg/15rpg guy. then you might have to settle for a 17-18ppg/9rpg center with far inferior shot blocking


its just allot more rare. and if you miss out on a kareem, shaq, wilt, hakeem. then you'l never beat a team with those guys when your starting center is pau gasol or somebody


but if you have kareem, shaq, wilt, or hakeem with a guard like mitch richmond and a forward like grant hill... youre gonna win


that doesnt make kobe, jordan or lebron any less of a player just because theres better backups in a draft. and their position is deeper




sorry


shaq is still behind guys like jordan, magic, kobe, bird and maybe someday lebron

[Carbine]

You would not take 11 people over LeBron to start a franchise with.

Shaq, Wilt, Hakeem, Duncan, Russell, Kareem

That's it.

Dirk? **** that....not even a discussion.

Ewing? No way, not with what we know happened. He wasn't the same after injuries.

KG? The same KG who missed the playoffs 3 straight years in his prime over LeBron who took slightly better teammates to 60+ wins....and took a bunch of scrubs to the finals?

Walton was injured way to quickly. With what we know happened injury wise it's an insult to even put his name there.

Shaq isn't even a slam dunk. It's a known fact he was going to cause trouble, his ego and work ethic bothered people. He burned huge bridges everywhere he has went and gone.

If I draft a guy...as great as he was.....do I draft the guy whos a 10 and have him for 5-6 years (Shaq)and then almost certainly he's going to leave? Or take the guy who's a 9.5 who's with me for 15+ years?