Russell Is Overrated

[KG215]

Russell made an impact and was the best player on the Celtics. Noone is disputing that.

But he IS overrated. He was pretty much Ben Wallace

Sometimes I think you just post stupid shit on purpose to see what kind of reaction you can get.

[TonyMontana]

If Ben Wallace, with those stats, was the best player on a team that won 11 chips in 13 years while taking home 5 MVPs after winning back-to-back chips in college and Olympic gold then we could make this comparison. Leave the numbers talk to Wilt stans

Championships is a team award, not an individual one. It has as much to do with who is on your team and the talent of the competition as it does to your own ability. Russell did it in an 8 team league where he had 5+ HOFers on his team.

Tell me what Russell does on the court that makes him uncomparable to a guy like Wallaces. Better passer and a SLIGHTLY better scorer. Thats it, and even then Wallace has the edge on the boards. You probably never even seen Russell play and just look at his media awards list.

[Psileas]

Russell made an impact and was the best player on the Celtics. Noone is disputing that.

But he IS overrated. He was pretty much Ben Wallace, but on a team with like 5+ other HOFers and in an 8 team league. Now Ben Wallace has a huge impact on the game, but Bill Russell isn't enough of a two-way player for me to put him among guys like Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem that dominated on both ends of the floor.

Heres their stats adjusted for pace.

Bill Russell 1961-62:

9.3 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 2.2 apg in Wallace's 86.8 poss. per game. & 36.5 mpg.

11.4 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 2.8 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

18.9 ppg, 23.6 rpg, 4.5 apg in his normal ~140 poss. per game. & 45.2 mpg.

Ben Wallace 2002-03:

6.9 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.7 spg, 3.5 bpg in his normal 86.8 poss. per game. & 36.5 mpg.

8.8 ppg, 19.5 rpg, 1.8 apg, 2.2 spg, 4.5 bpg in ~100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

13.9 ppg, 31.1 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.4 spg, 7.1 bpg in Russell's 140 poss. per game. & 45.2 mpg.

Ben was actually the better rebounder, but looks like Russell has a slight edge offensively. Is this edge large enough to make Russell a top 5 player ever while people put Ben Wallace top 100?

I had addressed very similar points in an older thread, but there's no search engine here, so, I'll just ask you this: Add the similarly adjusted numbers of Wallace's Pistons and their opponents, then do the same with the Celtics, then we'll compare who had the better impact for his team statistically. You may also add Wallace's best teammates' adjusted numbers, too, and see how they compare to the numbers of Russell's best teammates' numbers.
And even so, the figures still won't make any justice for Russell, since you didn't account for fatigue due to increased playing time for Wallace, you didn't account for increased fouls, you didn't account for reduced scoring efficiency (which is already lower than Russell's), you didn't account for assists counting differently, you didn't account for a lot.

Most importantly, moving away from stats, let's not forget that Wallace didn't even reach to the Finals, he didn't even win more than a single title and his stats for the most part of his career weren't even close to the ones you posted in a prime/peak season.
After all, if rankings were based solely on stats, why bring up Wallace? Isn't Wilt enough? And isn't a fact that a lot still rank Russell over Wilt?

[Psileas]

Oh, and, btw, your Wallace adjusted numbers are all wrong for one more reason, you had him play 36.5 mpg, while his correct number was 39.4.

[Straight_Ballin]

How are certain NBA awards given?


VOTED

Majority wins!

What is the opinion that Jordan is GOAT?

Majority!

No one gives 2 shits about a small minority opinion that Russel is GOAT.

Deal with it and move on already.

To deny Jordan as GOAT is to diminish the very base of NBA awards.

[CavaliersFTW]

Russell made an impact and was the best player on the Celtics. Noone is disputing that.

But he IS overrated. He was pretty much Ben Wallace, but on a team with like 5+ other HOFers and in an 8 team league. Now Ben Wallace has a huge impact on the game, but Bill Russell isn't enough of a two-way player for me to put him among guys like Shaq/Duncan/Hakeem that dominated on both ends of the floor.

Heres their stats adjusted for pace.

Bill Russell 1961-62:

9.3 ppg, 11.7 rpg, 2.2 apg in Wallace's 86.8 poss. per game. & 36.5 mpg.

11.4 ppg, 14.1 rpg, 2.8 apg in 100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

18.9 ppg, 23.6 rpg, 4.5 apg in his normal ~140 poss. per game. & 45.2 mpg.

Ben Wallace 2002-03:

6.9 ppg, 15.4 rpg, 1.4 apg, 1.7 spg, 3.5 bpg in his normal 86.8 poss. per game. & 36.5 mpg.

8.8 ppg, 19.5 rpg, 1.8 apg, 2.2 spg, 4.5 bpg in ~100 poss. per game. & 40 mpg.

13.9 ppg, 31.1 rpg, 2.8 apg, 3.4 spg, 7.1 bpg in Russell's 140 poss. per game. & 45.2 mpg.

Ben was actually the better rebounder, but looks like Russell has a slight edge offensively. Is this edge large enough to make Russell a top 5 player ever while people put Ben Wallace top 100?

Ben Wallace? Adjusted(Completely MADE UP) Stats?



Ben Wallace has NEVER been analogous to Bill Russell. Not even close. The fact that you think so means your nothing but a bball reference stats warrior. The fact that you even attempted to make "adjusted" stats means you also shouldn't even be discussing this topic because not only do you have no grasp of what Bill Russell did on the court but u further your ignorance by attempting to MAKE UP your own imaginary data

http://youtu.be/SF22xiRxHv8
Nothing to see here just another Ben Wallace folks, playing all 5 positions and able to run the floor and complete every play that was written for his teams HOF guards and forwards

[teddytwelvetoes]

Championships is a team award, not an individual one. It has as much to do with who is on your team and the talent of the competition as it does to your own ability. Russell did it in an 8 team league where he had 5+ HOFers on his team.

Tell me what Russell does on the court that makes him uncomparable to a guy like Wallaces. Better passer and a SLIGHTLY better scorer. Thats it, and even then Wallace has the edge on the boards. You probably never even seen Russell play and just look at his media awards list.

Who here has watched Russ play live?

I'm basing my opinion upon what I've read from players, coaches, and other NBA/media people. I've done enough research to be able to laugh at the "Wilt played with bums and Russell played with gods" myth. Wilt had help. Wilt wouldn't have won 11 chips if he had Russ's help.

[NumberSix]

Bill Russell was the original Joakim Noah.

[KG215]

It's always great to see Tony Montana's "shock value" posts completely blow-up in his face.

[chazzy]

I don't think Ben Wallace could score 15ppg on a 200 possession team

[LBJMVP]

he is obviously a little overrated... he played on the most stacked team of all time and it really isn't even close.

five hall of famers? you gotta be kidding.

he definitely isnt goat, but he is top 10.

the man is probly avering like 8/15 in todays game with amazing defense. and probly wins like 3-5 rings. no mvps

the last center to win mvp (duncan is PF) was shaq and he had to average 29/13/3

[poido123]

Bill Russell was the original Joakim Noah.

Obvious trolling. Try harder Numbersix

Bill Russell was an alltime great along with Wilt. They played in an era quite different to ours. To compare how they would fare to players today is inaccurate and misleading, when you consider that they absolutely dominated the era they were in.

Kareem, Wilt, Jordan, and Russell are in the tier 1 of all time greats.

Second tier is Magic, Bird, Shaq

Thrid tier Kobe, Hakeem, Duncan, Lebron

[TheTenth]

RPG adjusted to 36 minutes all time - CAREER - (having the same base RPG)
14.43 Dennis Rodman
13.65 Kevin Love
13.17 Bill Russell
12.81 Wilt Chamberlain
12.80 Dwight Howard
12.14 Bill Walton
12.11 Moses Malone
11.95 Maurice Stokes
11.59 Wes Unseld
11.32 Tim Duncan

Note that Kevin Love/Kevin Love/Tim Duncan are still active and Bill Walton and Mauric Stokes aren't qualifiers (not enough rebounds.)

[greymatter]

Russell was the skinniest center in the league almost every season that he played, yet you assume he was "probably stronger than most guys in the league at that time"

Was he stronger than Bellamy? Pettit? Lovellete? Embry? Wilt? Thurmond? Reed? I have a hard time thinking of centers who were skinnier than Russell, where as I can rattle off many that were documented as being heavier, and had a reputation for being stronger just off the top of my head. "Strength" wasn't even one of Bill Russell's gifts. Please stop commenting on this subject, your only embarrassing yourself.

Russell never cracked 220 at nearly 6'10". You're talking to the same imbecile that insists that Jordan could clearly have taken a team with Larry Hughes and Ilgauskas as his 2nd/3rd best players to the Finals.

[CavaliersFTW]

Russell never cracked 220 at nearly 6'10". You're talking to the same imbecile that insists that Jordan could clearly have taken a team with Larry Hughes and Ilgauskas as his 2nd/3rd best players to the Finals.

Maybe his first season he didn't, but Russell did crack 220 and pretty early on too, he was 222-230 in his prime and as he got older weighed as much as 240 but most people aren't aware of his actual weights or his competitions actual playing weights because bball reference only lists their draft/NCAA info. Guys like Walt Bellamy were playing against Russell at 265, Wayne Embry 280, Wilt Chamberlain 290... these guys dwarfed Russell even at Russell's bulkiest