LeBron -- great or just very good?

[coin24]

Where are all the Lebron stans telling us he's on par with MJ?
Or that Lebron needs more help

I couldn't agree more, Lebron is a good player, but not an all time great. Watching him play is underwhelming due to the fact that he does have the potential but just doesn't seem to care. As long as he gets his stats

[elementally morale]

Haha, but the above is nonsense. Can you not see you are not applying the same standards and being fair? If all it took was a series here and there for Baron or Starks to be 'great' then last year should have put all that talk for Lebron to bed.

Being great is subjective. You have to be better than your very self to become great. My grandpa ran a marathon at age 78. It took him 5 and a half hours -- not a very good time. But his effort was great. Sure, I don't use the same standard for my grandpa and for the world champ from Kenya.

Starks was not a very good player by NBA standards. But he played great many times. Most importantly: he tried leaving everything out there. He gave it his all. His play was electrifying even in defeat. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking of, not 'being very good'.

We all know there weren't 10 players who were better players than LeBron James. It makes no sense arguing LeBron is not a very very good player, as he obviously is. Just not great to me.

[Shade8780]

I have him in the top 15. He's one of the most talented players of all time, top 5 skill-wise, but like OP said, he doesn't have that winning, dominating force in him that can win big games. I think he could probably win another championship, but I don't see him cracking the top 10 ever if he loses this Finals series. Then again, LeBron could come out and drop 40 points on the Spurs next game and end up winning Game 7, but the chances are slim. I think it's still too early to judge whether he's great or very good yet as the series isn't over. Wait till it ends and then we can talk.

[KG215]

I mean a team as well put together and arguably as good as them. The Bulls were clearly the best team in an era where there was no real threat to them.

The same could be said about the Heat in that I think they were pretty clearly considered the best team in the league. And I don't see how these Spurs, with a well-past their prime Duncan and Ginobili, should be considered any better than teams like the '93 Suns, '92 Blazers, or even the Sonics or Jazz teams the Bulls beat in the second 3-peat.

The Spurs were a 58-win 6.67 SRS team this year.

'91 Lakers: 58 wins; 6.73 SRS
'92 Blazers: 57 wins; 6.94 SRS
'93 Suns: 62 wins; 6.27 SRS
'96 Sonics: 64 wins; 7.39 SRS
'97 Jazz: 64 wins; 7.97 SRS
'98 Jazz: 62 wins; 5.73 SRS

The Spurs are very good, and deep. They've also got a great coach. But I wouldn't say they're better than some of the teams Jordan's Bulls beat in the Finals. Maybe if this was a few years ago, and Duncan and Ginobili were closer to their prime with similar depth backing them up, sure; but the 2013 Spurs would be doing good to get out of the West some of those years.

[elementally morale]

Jordan was seen a lot like Lebron (great stats, but not a winner) until his team came together.

No. MJ was said to be a selfish ballhog, who will never win anything because he doesn't understand the concept of 'team'. Nobody ever questioned MJ to be great. LeBron on the other hand does understand teamplay from the very beginning. But he is nowhere near as great as MJ was -- and I'm talking about pre-rings MJ.

[LeBird]

The same could be said about the Heat in that I think they were pretty clearly considered the best team in the league. And I don't see how these Spurs, with a well-past their prime Duncan and Ginobili, should be considered any better than teams like the '93 Suns, '92 Blazers, or even the Sonics or Jazz teams the Bulls beat in the second 3-peat.

The Spurs were a 58-win 6.67 SRS team this year.

'91 Lakers: 58 wins; 6.73 SRS
'92 Blazers: 57 wins; 6.94 SRS
'93 Suns: 62 wins; 6.27 SRS
'96 Sonics: 64 wins; 7.39 SRS
'97 Jazz: 64 wins; 7.97 SRS
'98 Jazz: 62 wins; 5.73 SRS

The Spurs are very good, and deep. They've also got a great coach. But I wouldn't say they're better than some of the teams Jordan's Bulls beat in the Finals. Maybe if this was a few years ago, and Duncan and Ginobili were closer to their prime with similar depth backing them up, sure; but the 2013 Spurs would be doing good to get out of the West some of those years.

The Spurs team are better than any team (I am not talking about a single year or two but a sustained effort) than any team the Bulls faced.

While I agree with you that the Miami team is the best in terms of talent, it is a poorly constructed team to deal with the playoffs. It is an awesome regular season team but one that has obvious and very exploitable weaknesses (particularly in size). Their weaknesses and lack of cover make it even harder for them to face a team like the Spurs who have got something for everything (a very good all-round team) even if they won't have the kinds of regular seasons Miami will have.

The SRS is heavily dependent on the talent of the era. For comparison's sake in this regard it is poor.

No. MJ was said to be a selfish ballhog, who will never win anything because he doesn't understand the concept of 'team'. Nobody ever questioned MJ to be great. LeBron on the other hand does understand teamplay from the very beginning. But he is nowhere near as great as MJ was -- and I'm talking about pre-rings MJ.

No, they said that basically verbatim. Except then it was whether he would end up like Elgin Baylor.

[K Xerxes]

What are you on about? 'Based on how great he is, nowhere near top 50.'

LeBron James could retire today and he'd be one of the 50 greatest ever. When we compare Lebron to anyone, it's the top 10 all time greats. Those are the standards he has to reach, and he has failed to reach those standards in the playoffs. So far.

I know it's easy to make a conclusion now, but we do have 2 games left for him to make somwhat of a stamp on these finals. Funnily enough, LeBron probably plays his best basketball when his team is down or in intense pressure situations, particularly in these last two years. So there's a still a chance he shows us that something.

But, I agree, for a 'by far the best player in the planet', he has been incredibly underwhelming, and it has made me second guess his top 10 credentials. When I once thought he was sure fire to leap frog Duncan/Shaq/Kobe at some point in the near future after he racks up his titles... now I'm not sure where 1/4 in the finals leaves him. I actually thought that even if the Heat don't win, it wouldn't be down to LeBron. But it is partly down to him.

What an enigma. I've never seen anything like him.

[KG215]

The Spurs team are better than any team (I am not talking about a single year or two but a sustained effort) than any team the Bulls faced.

The Bulls beat better teams in the Finals than this Spurs teams. I'm not sure that's even debatable. And I don't see what sustained effort (I assume you're talking about them winning 4 rings in the Duncan era and being a contender almost every year) has to do with this Spurs team this year. This isn't the same Spurs team. It's deeper than some of their championship teams, but they don't have the same high-end star power. Duncan and Ginobili are shells of their former selves for the most part. Parker is the only one of their "Big 3" that's still in his prime.

Miami beating this current Spurs team wouldn't and shouldn't be considered more impressive because of their past success. They last won a championship 6 seasons ago.

[LeBird]

The Bulls beat better teams in the Finals than this Spurs teams. I'm not even sure that's debatable. And I don't see what sustained effort (I assume you're talking about them winning 4 rings in the Duncan era and being a contender almost every year) has to do with this Spurs team this year. This isn't the same Spurs team. It's deeper than some of their championship teams, but they don't have the same high-end star power. Duncan and Ginobili are shells of their former selves for the most part. Parker is the only one of their "Big 3" that's still in his prime.

Miami beating this current Spurs team wouldn't and shouldn't be considered more impressive because of their past success. They last won a championship 6 seasons ago.

You don't need high-end star power. This is a team game. You just need guys to step up here and there. The two teams that have given the Heat the biggest problems lack high-end stars and the Heat are at the top of the heap when it comes to stars.

Last year the Spurs were on an incredible run and only stopped by a high-flying Thunder. This year, even though they're older, they're even better - more complete. They've been perennial contenders. It is not really debatable. At a push I'd say Jazz, and even then the Bulls not only had better stars they had a much better put-together team.

[elementally morale]

What are you on about? 'Based on how great he is, nowhere near top 50.'

I also said 'based on how good he is I'd have him in my top 5'. To me, being great is not a higher form of being good. A higher form of being good is being very good or very very good. And LeBron is very very good.

Greatness is another issue.

[aspire]

if. Miami lose this, can that please mean I never have to hear a shit comparison of James to Jordan/Kobe etc etc
Does Magic Johnson have shares in LJ?! The way he carries on about him, dude, no one on the planet can stop him? SPURS JUST DID

[KG215]

You don't need high-end star power. This is a team game. You just need guys to step up here and there. The two teams that have given the Heat the biggest problems lack high-end stars and the Heat are at the top of the heap when it comes to stars.

Last year the Spurs were on an incredible run and only stopped by a high-flying Thunder. This year, even though they're older, they're even better - more complete. They've been perennial contenders. It is not really debatable. At a push I'd say Jazz, and even then the Bulls not only had better stars they had a much better put-together team.

So you expect me to believe this Spurs team is better than every team Jordan's Bulls beat in the Finals, save maybe the Jazz? And it's not even debatable? This Spurs team is clear-cut better than the '92 Blazers, '93 Suns, and '96 Sonics? And MAYBE a push with the '97 and '98 Jazz, worst?

[All Net]

People love to flip flop anytime he loses..

[K Xerxes]

I also said 'based on how good he is I'd have him in my top 5'. To me, being great is not a higher form of being good. A higher form of being good is being very good or very very good. And LeBron is very very good.

Greatness is another issue.

I don't understand the distinction you're making. What do 'very very good' and 'great' exactly?

LeBron is great, he just hasn't demonstrated that top 10 level of greatness in the playoffs. He sure as hell did in 2012 though, which is basically his only saving grace at the moment.

[ripthekik]

People love to flip flop anytime he loses..

I have been the most consistent. I stick to what I say.