LeBron -- great or just very good?

[kobeef24]

for this week

FIFY

[elementally morale]

Plenty of great players didn't win a single championship. Was Charles Barkley a great player?

Yes. But Karl Malone was not a great player to me, although he was very very good. He may have been better than Barkley but certainly nowhere near as great.

Am I the only one seeing (or imaginig) this difference?

[elementally morale]

Magic lost in the finals 4 times (won 5 of 9). Bird lost twice (won 3 of 5). Would anyone say they aren't 'great' players? This Spurs is a fantastic team run by one of the greatest coaches of all time. They're not going to be pushovers.

The two examples I used for greatness were Reggie Miller and Charles Barkley. And how many rings do they have combined? Exactly.

Rings don't make anyone great. His performance does -- or does not.

[KG215]

To me, LeBron as a great player is a very tough sell. He is a very good player but I fail to see greatness. He is by far the best player I've seen who manages not to be great at the same time.

Based on how good he is, I'd have him in my top 5 players ever. Based on how great he is, nowhere near top 50. I don't know how he does it. He plays great like 90% of the time, but fails to be great most of the time he plays well -- he just plays very well and that's it. And then when it comes to very important games, you just never know what you're gonna get. Sometimes, he comes out with a masterful performance. At other times, very pedestrian. Instead of being the unquestionable leader, in tough situations he is like an X-factor. There is a chance he will play well... there is a chance he will look like someone who doesn't even care.

Karl Malone was similar. Slightly worse as an overall player, but very similar in playing very good while lacking greatness.

Yeah, as confusing as some of this was to read, I actually get what you're saying (I think) and feel the same way.

I was prepared for some epic shit from LeBron in these playoffs. He finally go the "no rings" monkey off his back last year with an incredible playoff run, and followed it up with a regular season this year that had people losing their minds; and justifiably so in my opinion. I honestly thought this year, he was really, really close to peak Jordan.

So the playoffs start, and he doesn't really do anything memorable against the Bucks. But they were a 38 win team, and the entire Heat team more-or-less coasted that series. It was understandable. And, given the injuries the Bulls had, and the fact they weren't all that good to begin with, I was even somewhat excusing of his sub-par performance against them. Then he was really, really good against the Pacers but, like you said, not great.

He had some great games stats wise against the Pacers, but he didn't have a game that people will be talking about even a year or two from now, never mind 10+ years from now. Yes, he had the 30-10-10 triple-double in game 1 and made the game winning shot. But he scored like 10 points in the 1st quarter, then had a really long stretch spanning the entire 2nd quarter and a good chunk of the 3rd where he was sort of "just there", and the game-winning shot was a lay-up. And he was on the verge of having on of "those" games in game 2. He just took over in the second half for a stretch and was scoring at will, and it looked like the heat were going to take a 2-0 series lead. Then he had those two crucial turnovers at the end of the game and the Pacers won.

And now, here we are 5 games into the Finals, and he's yet to have anything remotely close to an unforgettable game. Again, the standard has been set very, very high based on his playoff run last year and regular season this year. So we're talking about players like Jordan, Shaq, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Kareem, etc. Guys that had revered and multiple dominant playoff runs at their peak. And, like in game 1 of the ECF, he put up a "meh" triple-double. He was passive offensively all game, but at least dominated on the boards and got teammates involved. But his one really good game was a 33-11-4 performance where he tacked on 9 points in garbage time, and wasn't even the player on his team closing the game in 4th quarter.

Bottomline, during this three year run at his peak, he's consistently underwhelmed in the Finals. 2011 he was great up until the Finals, before performing a disappearing act. 2012 he was great from the 1st round through the Finals; and this year he's just been consistently well below his standards from start to (near) finish. And it's not that he's been bad, that's not what I'm saying. It's just, like you said, he hasn't been great, and now it's starting to look like the 2012 Finals is going to be the outlier of his 4 Finals appearances. That shouldn't be the case with someone who has his talent and physical gifts. The one good Finals performance shouldn't be the one that looks like the "odd man out".

I don't know, maybe I and a few others just have ridiculously high standards for him. Maybe this is just who he is. An incredibly talented player who's unbelievably good most of the time, but one that is also capable of completely disappearing in big games and in crucial moments.

[Mr. Jabbar]

I agree with OP. Everything is spot on. Its what lebron irradiates, what fans perceive, and no boxscore can tell you that story, well, maybe some finals boxscores

[LeBird]

The two examples I used for greatness were Reggie Miller and Charles Barkley. And how many rings do they have combined? Exactly.

Rings don't make anyone great. His performance does -- or does not.

Doesn't matter, by the rationale that they didn't win they failed - they had bad performances in losing games too. It is not like Jordan performed in every match and was responsible for every win in a finals either, even with his 6/6 finals record. He got lucky winning when others got hot too. And he probably never had a match-up like this Spurs in his run.

Players are imperfect, deal with it.

[kobeef24]

We've all seen LeBron be great in the regular season and in 2012, but I do have to agree with you to an extent. There are times where he just seems invisible out there and just doesn't have the same impact on games. But if LeBron comes and and wins these next 2 games then he can definitely turn this year around. He's capable of greatness, but it's just not always there.

[bdreason]

Yes. But Karl Malone was not a great player to me, although he was very very good. He may have been better than Barkley but certainly nowhere near as great.

Am I the only one seeing (or imaginig) this difference?

Karl Malone wasn't a great player?




And I think you're forgetting about all the great players who have tasted defeat. Magic lost in the Finals multiple times. Bird lost in the Finals multiple times. Wilt lost in the Finals multiple times. Kareem lost in the Finals multiple times.


I don't know if LeBron will ever elevate his career to the level of all those players, but only time will tell. He could easily lose this Finals, and still go on to win 3-4 more rings.

[KG215]

Doesn't matter, by the rationale that they didn't win they failed - they had bad performances in losing games too. It is not like Jordan performed in every match and was responsible for every win in a finals either, even with his 6/6 finals record. He got lucky winning when others got hot too. And he probably never had a match-up like this Spurs in his run.

Players are imperfect, deal with it.

What do you mean by the bold?

[elementally morale]

Players are imperfect, deal with it.

I'm dealing with it fine, thanks.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I don't root againt James. As for me, he may go on and win the next 10 rings -- as long as it's entertaining basketball, visible effort, drama, great plays, clutch performances and so on.

But. This Heat team was very close to losing to the Celtics (good job good effort). They are close to losing to a not historically great Spurs team. They lost to the Mavericks... a team they should have easily beaten. And LeBron was subpar in many of these games. He lacked the intensity. Greatness.

He is lucky they were able to beat Boston last year (and he was great in those last two games). Had they lost to the Celtics, he would have lost 50% of his fame within 48 minutes. The next 48 minutes are the same. And the ones after that just as well.

It's time for him to show greatness. Not 'good play'. A kind of overall dominance from start to finish. He may go 8 of 23 and still be great. I'm not talking about some stats.

[elementally morale]

Karl Malone wasn't a great player?

To me he was not. Stockton however, was. And Malone was probably the better player of the two. John Starks, playing against the Bulls... he was great. Baron Davis during the series the Warriors beat the Mavs was great. LeBron on his average day is better than Baron Davis ever was. But I've never seen LeBron play as great a series as Baron has.

[WeGetRing2012]

Magic lost in the finals 4 times (won 5 of 9). Bird lost twice (won 3 of 5). Would anyone say they aren't 'great' players? This Spurs is a fantastic team run by one of the greatest coaches of all time. They're not going to be pushovers.

The greatest rivalry in basketball. Good example...

[LeBird]

What do you mean by the bold?

I mean a team as well put together and arguably as good as them. The Bulls were clearly the best team in an era where there was no real threat to them.

I'm dealing with it fine, thanks.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I don't root againt James. As for me, he may go on and win the next 10 rings -- as long as it's entertaining basketball, visible effort, drama, great plays, clutch performances and so on.

But. This Heat team was very close to losing to the Celtics (good job good effort). They are close to losing to a not historically great Spurs team. They lost to the Mavericks... a team they should have easily beaten. And LeBron was subpar in many of these games. He lacked the intensity. Greatness.

He is lucky they were able to beat Boston last year (and he was great in those last two games). Had they lost to the Celtics, he would have lost 50% of his fame within 48 minutes. The next 48 minutes are the same. And the ones after that just as well.

It's time for him to show greatness. Not 'good play'. A kind of overall dominance from start to finish. He may go 8 of 23 and still be great. I'm not talking about some stats.

The point is that if people want to comb over the legends of the past as much as they're doing for Lebron now you'll find plenty to doubt them on as well.

That's the nature of the beast: older players' bad plays are forgotten. Magic wasn't just considered underpar but an outright choker. Jordan was seen a lot like Lebron (great stats, but not a winner) until his team came together.

Those Lakers lost to inferior teams like the Rockets. Or the Celtics to the Bucks. Hey, shit happens.

[LeBird]

To me he was not. Stockton however, was. And Malone was probably the better player of the two. John Starks, playing against the Bulls... he was great. Baron Davis during the series the Warriors beat the Mavs was great. LeBron on his average day is better than Baron Davis ever was. But I've never seen LeBron play as great a series as Baron has.

Haha, but the above is nonsense. Can you not see you are not applying the same standards and being fair? If all it took was a series here and there for Baron or Starks to be 'great' then last year should have put all that talk for Lebron to bed.

[PizzamanIRL]

He needs to stop moaning to the refs. The refs won't change their decision because you're unhappy with them. At least twice in the 4th quarter he didn't get back on transition because he was too busy complaining to the refs. They didn't blow their whistle so stop ****ing moaning and get back on defense.