Harden vs Wade at 23 years old...

[Nash]

I love Harden but let's chill. Current Wade > Current Harden.

Just wait for D-Wade come playoff time.

Also at 23 Wade was on his 2nd year.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Which is why he struggles in the playoffs against elite defensive opponents like Miami.

In the playoffs in the NBA, you aren't going to get huge driving lanes to finish at the hoop and unlike the regular season when teams coast defensively, in the playoffs they run you off the three point line. Especially a great defensive team like Miami.

The mid-range game is a lost art in basketball among perimeter players. That in between game is where you do DAMAGE to a team who actually plays defense. You're not going to get easy drives or wide open threes.

Yeah, it's something Harden has to work on if he's going to take his game to the next level. These things do show up more in the playoffs. I've seen many players who have holes in their skillsets get "exposed" in the playoffs and not perform up to their regular season standard.

It's no coincidence the most successful perimeter players could score from mid range. Jordan won 6 rings dominating that phase of the game. Keeping him the best player in the game well into his mid 30's. Kobe has a sick mid-range game which has lead to 2 rings as alpha, by 2006 with the inclusion of a nice mid-range jumper Wade had it, and won a ring and FMVP in the process.

Yeah, Jordan's mid-range jumper was as big of a part of his game as the drives once Phil took over. He could drive any time he wanted, but anyone who watches the games will see how much of his points came on mid-range jumpers. This was important because it allowed him to fit his game better into the team's offense. He'd still score 35-40, but it was part of what made him so great at making quick, decisive moves. He didn't have to work to get to the basket all the time. Instead of settling for 3s, or trying to force his way to the basket. He'd just take a dribble in from the 3 point line and hit a pull up 18-20 footer, which he rarely missed. This also allowed him to be a better off the ball player as well. Contrary to popular belief, Jordan could shoot 3s, the '90 and '93 seasons are proof, but he preferred the mid-range game, and there's a reason for that.

Kobe is another great example. His mid-range game has been excellent for years. When he took his game to the next level in 2001, I think he had shot either 500 or 1000 jumpers everyday during the offseason. And during that season, Kobe was also lethal from about 20 feet in, and also had the inbetween game with shorter jumpers and floaters which added to his drives. He already had the fadeaway down as well. He actually wasn't much of a 3 point shooter until 2003, but was a great shooter because of the mid-range game, which is more important for a great scorer. Actually, Kobe had the mid-range game before '01. Not as good as '01, but that was already one of his strengths, and I remember even back then people were calling it a lost art.

LeBron didn't have it, and then had it in the 2012 season, his most successful playoff run (see the mid-range barrage v.s. Boston in game 6) ... Harden needs to add this to his game to seriously be effective.

Yeah, I think if you look at what happened to Lebron in the '07 finals and '08 Boston series was his jump shot getting exposed. Most teams couldn't stop him from getting to the basket, which also made him a great playmaker and he was a streaky long range shooter. But the Spurs and Celtics made him a jump shooter and it paid off.

One of the things that took Lebron's game to the next level in '09 was that he was a greatly improved shooter, same with 2010. But it was still mostly long 2s and 3s. He's really added the short range game with Miami. The play that he scored his 20,000 on is a good example. He drove, pulled up and hit a short jumper. And while it doesn't look as nice as Jordan or Kobe's fadeaway, we've seen Lebron add a fadeaway that he'll make quite a bit from 10-15 feet.

Actually, he's not on the same level as many of the guys we're mentioning, but what took Tony Parker's game to the next level and made him a legit all-star was his improved jumper around '06. And it was his mid-range shot, not 3s, and that added to his quickness. He wouldn't fire away 3s anymore, but he'd hit 18-20 footers, or could drive and finish which he did very well for his size.

Indeed. Harden attempts less jumpshots at the mid-range than Wade. He is only attempting about 3 shots from 16-23 and less than one attempt at the 10-15 spot. And he is pretty bad at it. Wade could take you off the dribble or do a better catch and shot at the time, but his game was more slashing. But his midrange game back then was better than Harden, and it rounds up as a jumpshooter overall when the defense is active.

So, I would think Wade had the more ability to change it up since Harden never really was a good mid-range shooter. But he is the better FT shooter, which is why he scores more despite Wade having a better FG%.

Harden does attempt almost six threes per game, so he still does shoot more jumpers. Honestly, I'm surprised Wade even attempted 4 shots from 16-23 in '05. Wade did prove himself that year in the playoffs, though. That's when I really took notice of what a special player Wade was and could be. So I'll have to see something like that from Harden before taking the comparison too seriously.

In terms of age and style of volume scoring, Harden reminds me of prime Latrell Sprewell in his Golden State days.

I watched more of Spree in NY, but he was definitely faster and quicker than Harden. Harden seems to play more in control while Spree was always a burst of energy. Sprewell was obviously the much better defender, and had more of the short range and in between game.

I love Harden but let's chill. Current Wade > Current Harden.

Just wait for D-Wade come playoff time.

Also at 23 Wade was on his 2nd year.

Based on this season so far, Harden has been better than Wade. We'll see what he does in the playoffs It's tough to guess since Wade struggled early in last year's playoffs, but then had some great games. He can show flashes of prime Wade, but he hasn't consistently played like that since 2011.

[SCdac]

I watched more of Spree in NY, but he was definitely faster and quicker than Harden. Harden seems to play more in control while Spree was always a burst of energy. Sprewell was obviously the much better defender, and had more of the short range and in between game.

While I agree Sprewell was quicker and more explosive, Harden is deceptively fast (and strong), takes long strides ala Ginobili, and runs the break often.

Both were getting alot of their points within the fast paced flow. And, something I didn't mention earlier, Harden's and Sprewell's actual shot and shooting stroke look more similar than Wade.

As far as defense, Harden doesn't seem like a natural great (as far as lateral speed and innate abilities) but with somebody his age there's always room for improvement. Same for Harden's in-between game, which tends to improve as players age I think. Ginobili in particular put alot of work into his midrange shot at about 26-28 years and I think it just takes the discipline (it is sort of a lost art).

The way Sprewell racked up assists and built plays from the perimeter reminds me of Harden on the Rockets. Sometimes in a triple-threat kind of position, but not always. Prime Wade seemed more inside-out ala Tony Parker.

Sprewell (39/11/9) with Golden State Warriors, 1997
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wyb74l3fUc

[ShaqAttack3234]

While I agree Sprewell was quicker and more explosive, Harden is deceptively fast (and strong), takes long strides ala Ginobili, and runs the break often.

Both were getting alot of their points within the fast paced flow. And, something I didn't mention earlier, Harden's and Sprewell's actual shot and shooting stroke look more similar than Wade.

As far as defense, Harden doesn't seem like a natural great (as far as lateral speed and innate abilities) but with somebody his age there's always room for improvement. Same for Harden's in-between game, which tends to improve as players age I think. Ginobili in particular put alot of work into his midrange shot at about 26-28 years and I think it just takes the discipline (it is sort of a lost art).

The way Sprewell racked up assists and built plays from the perimeter reminds me of Harden on the Rockets. Sometimes in a triple-threat kind of position, but not always. Prime Wade seemed more inside-out ala Tony Parker.

Sprewell (39/11/9) with Golden State Warriors, 1997
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wyb74l3fUc

There's no question Harden can improve on these areas, he has a lot of time. Harden is a deceptive player in general, though, which reminds me much more of Ginobili.

You're right that both took advantage of transition opportunities, though. Even with the Knicks, when Ewing got injured, Spree added a new dimension to the team in that '99 run. They were never going to be a running team with Van Gundy coaching, but with Camby's athleticism, they tried to run more, and that was the only chance vs the Spurs, but there really wasn't much of a chance vs that Spurs team as you know. They were beating teams with more talent, higher expectations and more size than the Knicks with ease such as LA and Portland. Even so, Spree managed to score in transition for the Knicks, so that was obviously a big part of his game, just like Harden is thriving.

[Micku]

Other than the fact Wade attacked you should also look at who relies more on fastbreak points. The Rockets are playing at a much faster pace than the 05 Heat so Harden might be getting more easy transition buckets. Wade also had Shaq on his team who gave him more room on the outside for jumpshots but probably made finishing a bit more difficult due to his inside presence. I think the main reason Harden is finishing better is because he gets cleaner looks by playing more under control. Wade would just crash right into the lane

That's a very good point.

I think you are right overall. The Rockets are the second best fastbreak team in the league atm, only a .1 points behind denver. So, it could help Harden percentage of course. I just don't know how often he gets those.

I think you are right on the money when you said that Harden looks like he plays more in control while Wade would crash in the lane. It just that Wade actually got better at finishing at the rim the very next season even with Shaq on the team. He did give him room for his jumpers as you said. I think you are right about Harden and the Rockets. But Harden was always pretty good at finishing at the rim. In his second year and beyond, he always shot above 60% at the rim.

I'll give you some context for the mid-range shooting. The Rockets' offense heavily favors lay-ups or 3s and condemns long 2s even if they're better looks. From the games I've seen, a significant portion of Harden's mid-range attempts have been bail-out jumpers from a failed offensive set.

I only watched a handful of the Rockets games, so I would take your word for it and it does appear that you are right. The Rockets are the lead the league in 3pt shots, but they aren't that good with 2 pointers. They are 27th overall from 2 pointers:

http://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat...rom-2-pointers

With that said tho, Harden never really was that good at his midrange game. He wasn't that good last year, and he's even worst this year. Last year he did average 42.2% at the 16-23ft (made a mistake before), but only average 1 attempt per game. The 10-15ft he shot 29.0% but less than 1 attempt per game. As you said, it could be bailout jumpers this year, but midrange never seem to be apart of his game and he was never really that good at it.

Harden does attempt almost six threes per game, so he still does shoot more jumpers. Honestly, I'm surprised Wade even attempted 4 shots from 16-23 in '05. Wade did prove himself that year in the playoffs, though. That's when I really took notice of what a special player Wade was and could be. So I'll have to see something like that from Harden before taking the comparison too seriously.

I agree. Harden had a hiccup last year in the finals while Wade in the 05 playoffs stand out a bit. But there are other things that make Wade more impressive than Harden at the same age. Harden don't really have Wade's defense at the same age. I think Harden does have similar playmaking ability even though Wade had more assists. I would guess it's due to Lin, but Wade also had Jason Williams the very next year. Wade is better from the field, take better shots and is better while the defense is active, tho Harden is the better scorer due to his FTs percentage.

As you said, we'll have to see what could Harden do. In the playoffs, Wade stood out a bit. We'll see if Harden could do something similar.

[TheNaturalWR]

I dunno if it's just me but Wade was waaay more athletic. Faster, quicker, more explosive, played above the rim more. Harden is the better shooter but even than I don't think he get's into the lane like D.Wade did. Wade used his physical tools perfectly for defense too. Really at this point the only thing Harden does better to me is shoot the ball. He's more crafty like a Manu where as D.Wade was the explosive player that had a good handle and could get others involved and play great D.

If I had to bet on it I'd say Harden doesn't end up as good as Wade was
individually. Wade at his peak is one of the greatest we've seen.

This x100.