Last couple games has shown how having a great pg makes scoring much easier for kobe

[CAstill]

Lakers did.

Post up point guard being Kobe.

more like facilitating playmaker in the triangle.

A great PG would of forced phil to revamp the strengths of the triangle
strategy he was trying to go with.

[Rubio2Gasol]

more like facilitating playmaker in the triangle.

A great PG would of forced phil to revamp the strengths of the triangle
strategy he was trying to go with.

I know the dude wasn't a point guard.

But the point is how is having a point guard who can post up a bad thing? it's the same as having any other player who can post up. It's an advantage. Play making from the pinch post was the staple of this offense...whether it was a point guard running it or Kobe being the primary play maker.

Payton wasn't a good fit with Kobe, but lets not try to act like point guards posting up isn't the "right way". It's an asset and an advantage for those who can do it.

[Purch]

Payton may have not been Nash/Kidd level in the playmaking department but can you explain to me what makes him not a point guard.

And please don't say posting up because you guys have clearly neglected how great a passer and player Kidd himself was out of the post.

Payton averged somewhere in the assist range basiclly his whole prime, whiles being one the best point guard defener of all time, being a great post player, and a good shooter. How is he overrated or not a pg?

[CAstill]

Being a post up PG isn't a bad thing at all. I was saying Kobe couldn't
be that. The triangle wouldn't allow him to play traditional PG.
He was playmaking with in the offense and did what he could
with the players around him. If they would of had a great pg
from the gate the games would of looked different.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Payton may have not been Nash/Kidd level in the playmaking department but can you explain to me what makes him not a point guard.

And please don't say posting up because you guys have clearly neglected how great a passer and player Kidd himself was out of the post.

Payton averged somewhere in the assist range basiclly his whole prime, whiles being one the best point guard defener of all time, being a great post player, and a good shooter. How is he overrated or not a pg?

I don't know what people are trying to say but here's my take.

In 2003-2004 Payton simply wasn't that good. In fact I am being generous here. When we get over the initial success and his moderately OK regular season play and we start to break down what actually happened you'll see why he humiliated himself in the playoffs.

He never made a cursory attempt to understand the triangle, to learn to play within it. He was GP - overconfident in himself and with injuries to basically every key player , he got to play some loose - free basketball for a circumvented period that translated into him being moderately not bad.

Then we arrive to the playoffs.

He was butting heads with the coaching staff, and he was playing like crap... especially the finals. He played so poorly in the finals, you can't even begin to explain it. Bad defense, terrible offense, and a disgusting attitude. If he didn't come to the Lakers, and Fisher was the starting point guard all year... the Lakers end up with a finals fight (instead of getting embarrased in a 5game sweep), and possibly come out with the chip.

In the playoffs he was quite possibly one of /if not the worst starters in the playoffs, and easily the biggest dissappointment on the Lakers. I mean he averaged like 7/5/3 in 35minutes to go along with 36FG%.

I'm not a fan of stats - but....seriously.

Those kinds of minutes, then add his bad attitude, and you got yourself a mess -- Gary Payton's playoffs is the most underrated aspect when people talk about the 03-04 Laker failures.

I hear Kobe the most (who was magnificant, until the finals), and then of course Malones injury, which is a major factor... but Payton's performance is right up there with Malones injury in terms of why the Lakers got embarrassed come finals.

It got to a point where he was so useless offensively that the Pistons didn't even bother with that garbage. They just doubled and tripled Kobe as the flow went.

What this has to do with him not being a point guard or posting up not being the "true" way of play making is anyone's guess. If that is what people are trying to assert to explain his poor performance or extending that - to assert that you can't have success if your point guard posts up- then those people are idiots.

[CAstill]

You just explained why Kobe stans can bash the haters
when they bring up Payton as a great PG that Kobe has played with.
The Kobe stans then rebuttal with Payton was garbage at the
time of playing with each other and especially in the Playoffs.
Haters than bring up misleading stats that make it seem like
Payton was playing better than he was with no context.
And Obviously at this point in their careers Old Nash> Old Glove.

[Purch]

You just explained why Kobe stans can bash the haters
when they bring up Payton as a great PG that Kobe has played with.
The Kobe stans then rebuttal with Payton was garbage at the
time of playing with each other and especially in the Playoffs.
Haters than bring up misleading stats that make it seem like
Payton was playing better than he was with no context.
And Obviously at this point in their careers Old Nash> Old Glove.

I don't know what you're referring to, but I was referring to the notion that Payton was the most overrated pg of all time and really wasnt a pg

[Purch]

I don't know what people are trying to say but here's my take.

In 2003-2004 Payton simply wasn't that good. In fact I am being generous here. When we get over the initial success and his moderately OK regular season play and we start to break down what actually happened you'll see why he humiliated himself in the playoffs.

He never made a cursory attempt to understand the triangle, to learn to play within it. He was GP - overconfident in himself and with injuries to basically every key player , he got to play some loose - free basketball for a circumvented period that translated into him being moderately not bad.

Then we arrive to the playoffs.

He was butting heads with the coaching staff, and he was playing like crap... especially the finals. He played so poorly in the finals, you can't even begin to explain it. Bad defense, terrible offense, and a disgusting attitude. If he didn't come to the Lakers, and Fisher was the starting point guard all year... the Lakers end up with a finals fight (instead of getting embarrased in a 5game sweep), and possibly come out with the chip.

In the playoffs he was quite possibly one of /if not the worst starters in the playoffs, and easily the biggest dissappointment on the Lakers. I mean he averaged like 7/5/3 in 35minutes to go along with 36FG%.

I'm not a fan of stats - but....seriously.

Those kinds of minutes, then add his bad attitude, and you got yourself a mess -- Gary Payton's playoffs is the most underrated aspect when people talk about the 03-04 Laker failures.

I hear Kobe the most (who was magnificant, until the finals), and then of course Malones injury, which is a major factor... but Payton's performance is right up there with Malones injury in terms of why the Lakers got embarrassed come finals.

It got to a point where he was so useless offensively that the Pistons didn't even bother with that garbage. They just doubled and tripled Kobe as the flow went.

What this has to do with him not being a point guard or posting up not being the "true" way of play making is anyone's guess. If that is what people are trying to assert to explain his poor performance or extending that - to assert that you can't have success if your point guard posts up- then those people are idiots.

Valid points. Do you think that Payton's inabilty to learn the triangle reinforced the idea that Phil wouldn't be able to coach star point guards?

[Rubio2Gasol]

Valid points. Do you think that Payton's inabilty to learn the triangle reinforced the idea that Phil wouldn't be able to coach star point guards?

No.

First of all we need to stop acting like there's some sort of rigid definition of what being a point guard means. There isn't one , there are different styles and different styles would fit different systems.

Phil could coach prime Gary Payton- The triangle would thrive with him actually, just like it would thrive with a range of other great point guards. But this Gary Payton and the role he tried to play just did not fit. He wasn't supposed to be a "star" - he was supposed to complement them.

Never at any point did it seem sensible to switch away from the triangle, which was the only way Payton was going to be accommodated. Phil made the right choice with the exception of enduring with Payton for god knows what reason.

It's simply stupid to say he couldn't coach an elite Point guard when he never coached one. Think about it. You're basically saying because he never had the opportunity to do it - that he couldn't do it.

Maybe he didn't prefer it - but that's fair enough - every coach has their preferences.

[CAstill]

I don't know what you're referring to, but I was referring to the notion that Payton was the most overrated pg of all time and really wasnt a pg

I was talking to Rubio2Gasol or referring to his post on
why Payton was a bad PG when playing with Kobe
which is what this whole thing is about.
If you're talking about Payton being overrated through
his career i would disagree. GP is Town Biznezz!
Teams would kill to have prime GP start for their team.

[CAstill]

Being a PG means you're the guy who directs other players
to their duties. He initiates the offense.

[mikek85]

Nash carrying Kobe just like Shaq carried Kobe. If Kobe played in any other city he would have no rings. Guy is not a leader and is a black hole. He should be thanking Mitch Kupchak every single day for the rest of his life.

Neg me Kobe fans, cause Kobe's lack of leadership and black hole ability has been DOCUMENTED.

[DonDadda59]

Kobe wasn't in his prime.. He was 17/18 years old. This is the first time we've seen kobe as a complete player still somewhat in his prime with a great facilitator/pg. Nash has never elied on his physical gifts.. He s pure craftiness, handles, vision, passing, shooting, IQ. Straight skill. Apples and oranges compared to payton who most definitely relied more on great physical gifts though he was still a skilled post scorer and passer.. Not a great facilitator though which is the point of this thread.

Alright, so when the Lakers implode again this season I hope all the Kobe stans stay consistent with the above point when it comes down to excuse-making time. I don't want to hear about how Steve Nash was a broken down shadow of his former self who couldn't pick up D'Antoni's system. We already have to figure out how the best center in the league magically turned into a scrub after joining up with Kobe, we don't have the resources to investigate how an ageless wonder who "has never elied on his physical gifts.. He s pure craftiness, handles, vision, passing, shooting, IQ. Straight skill" magically aged overnight.

So... What's the story here?

[Graviton]

So... What's the story here?

[DonDadda59]

Kobe's effiency with Nash

11/14
10/20
16/41
14/24
13/24
9/18

73/141
51.8 FG%
5/6 games with 50+ FG%

You got any updates for us playa? How's that efficiency working out. Kobe FINALLY has a great playmaking PG to play with. Those efficiency stats must be off the charts