How good was Kareem defensively?

[Asukal]

Defense is harder to measure than offense. Most people will just look at spg and bpg then make a conclusion but if you truly understand the game you know that defense is much more than that. Defense has a lot of intangibles which can't be measured like denying the ball, guarding the strong side of the offensive player, trapping, blocking the passing lanes, help defense, knowing when to switch, forcing a non jump shooter into a jump shot, boxing out for a rebound, etc. Those things can't be measured statistically, its something you will see in a player if you watch him play. So to measure Kareem's defensive ability, an indepth analysis is needed which requires a lot of work moreso specially if you are going to compare him to other centers. Anyone willing to do the work?

[WillC]

Why use age and not # of seasons the player has been in the league? (i.e year 3 - 10)

Or better yet, take a player's top 6 win shares season and divide it by the #of games played in those seasons. I would like to see the result of that.

Years 3-10 wouldn't work because it would be unfair on players who entered the league out of high school, e.g. Jermaine O'Neal, Andrew Bynum, etc.

If you do it by age, you get a fairer impression of a player's ability during their peak.

Having said that, I like your 'top 6 win shares' suggestion.

[Legends66NBA7]

I'm not a big win shares fan, but I do have a question for you Will.

What do you know about the advanced metric 'Loss Shares' ? How do you calculate it ? And is still being kept track off ? Does have any proper guage or merit ?

I've seen it on basketball reference, but I don't know if it's updated anymore.

[julizaver]

I only wanted to comment on one thing, as he rarely gets his due. Russell is the consensus GOAT defender, but Thurmond is the consensus second-only-to-Russell among the people who were actually there at the time. He doesn't get his due now because most people don't know about anything before Magic and Bird, and so Thurmond's name has slipped through the cracks in discussions about all-time greatest defenders. So no, Kareem wasn't on Thurmond's level defensively.

Reading old newspapers Nate was rated as the best one on one defender, while Russell better overall (contribute more to the team defence). BUT it is hard to said how good was Kareem defensevely since he never concentrate solely on defence like late Wilt for example.
I tend to agree with you also about Nate being ahead of Kareem defensively, because Kareem lack the intensity and toughness of Thurmond in defense. And it is not only about skills it is also about nature and mentality. I read several interviews with Nate claiming modestly that no one can stop Jabbar and he just make Kareem working harder for his shots.
The one approach to evaluate Kareem will be to research Kareem games against centers who had strong offensive games at his prime years, I mean to see what their FG % is ? Anyway with his mobility and quickness Kareem helps a lot with Bucks team defense.

[julizaver]

Defense is harder to measure than offense. Most people will just look at spg and bpg then make a conclusion but if you truly understand the game you know that defense is much more than that. Defense has a lot of intangibles which can't be measured like denying the ball, guarding the strong side of the offensive player, trapping, blocking the passing lanes, help defense, knowing when to switch, forcing a non jump shooter into a jump shot, boxing out for a rebound, etc. Those things can't be measured statistically, its something you will see in a player if you watch him play. So to measure Kareem's defensive ability, an indepth analysis is needed which requires a lot of work moreso specially if you are going to compare him to other centers. Anyone willing to do the work?

Yes, agree with that, sometimes the box scores do not show the whole picture. This information could be provide by people who actually saw Kareem play, or his contemporaries and opponents. BUT as i say in my previous post the offensive game/skills of Kareem overshadows his defensive contributions.

[Pointguard]

Defense is harder to measure than offense. Most people will just look at spg and bpg then make a conclusion but if you truly understand the game you know that defense is much more than that. Defense has a lot of intangibles which can't be measured like denying the ball, guarding the strong side of the offensive player, trapping, blocking the passing lanes, help defense, knowing when to switch, forcing a non jump shooter into a jump shot, boxing out for a rebound, etc. Those things can't be measured statistically, its something you will see in a player if you watch him play. So to measure Kareem's defensive ability, an indepth analysis is needed which requires a lot of work moreso, specially if you are going to compare him to other centers. Anyone willing to do the work?

Great defensive players usually have, outside of some advantageous physicality: A) enthusiasm to play it as it will inspire others as well, B) great judgment (when to go for a shot, or pass, or how to keep a player contained and a great idea of how far his risk can go), C) Great timing, D)Great Reflexes, E)A solid understanding of how to limit the offensive teams schemes, F) Mobility. In the future it will be G) communication. which should be one of the most important traits but very few do it or have done it. If you read the Art of War or any Commander in Chief manual its a major component.

I might have missed something as I did it off the top of my head. But its a beginning point.

[Whoah10115]

Lakers Kareem looked lazy to me. Even in the Finals vs. Walton and in the years prior to Magic. The year with Magic already looks different. But before and after that he looked lazy as hell to cover the pick n' roll and didn't contest shots unless he knew he would block them. He hardly ever put a body on people.

[feyki]

Only Bill,Hakeem,Wilt,Duncan,Admiral,Thurmond and Ben were better in NBA History .

[Kvnzhangyay]

Kareem didn't try at all until the playoffs

[ArbitraryWater]

On a phone, can't keep jumping back and forth where's Moses Malone on your list? He should be top 5 top 8 at the worst

He's not that high but Malone was a very good man to man defender who could defend the PF and center position. He didn't put up the stats others did but he had a large defensive impact on games with his activity. Highly underrated on D by those that didn't see him play and only have stats to go by

dude came in here answering with his alt

[senelcoolidge]

He was much better when he first came into the league..young Kareem. Young Kareem was so long and very athletic. A beast.

[SexSymbol]

Kareem was soft on defense and was worse than current pau gasol on defense post 1980.
He was a pretty good defender while he was young tho, and obviously a great rebounder.

[72-10]

I think Kareem might be a little overrated defensively when taking his statistics into account. For instance, he racked up pretty impressive blocks totals in the 70s, but from the little film I have watched (which will be considerably more in the future), he seemed to get out of position sometimes.

He kind of fell off statistically in the 80s, particularly concerning defensive rebounds. I think he wanted to take less of a lead role then, though. Being surrounded by such talent might have contributed to that mindset.

[72-10]

Only Bill,Hakeem,Wilt,Duncan,Admiral,Thurmond and Ben were better in NBA History .

And Dwight.

[feyki]

Kareem was soft on defense and was worse than current pau gasol on defense post 1980.
He was a pretty good defender while he was young tho, and obviously a great rebounder.

He wasn't soft until his 40 .

He was the best defender of Lakers in between 80-87 . Btw , Pau was good defender too in my mind .


He averaged 1.3 steals and 3.2 blocks on 100 poss at between 81-87 playoffs . That's prime Ewing level .