ISH: Where MJ and Shaq allegedly had a higher peak than Wilt Chamberlain

[Odinn]

These Wilt-obssessed guys can be annoying... Like Kobe-stans.

[ThunderStruk022]

MJ is oldschool to dipshit. And i've defended MJ many times on this forum but this specific topic is just a

One man owns the recordbook by a mile and his name wasn't MJ, nor was it Shaq. People are making up so many excuses for MJ and / or Shaq. I'm only pointing out the obvious.

You don't think Jordan, who averaged 35 and 37 ppg at his scoring best wouldn't touch 40 ppg in an era where the pace for teams was 20-30 possessions higher than the late 80s?

And when I say old school for you, dipshit, I mean the really old school. You seem to go to all ends to defends the players from the 50s, 60s, and 70s. If you're defending guys from later eras, that's cool and I apologize. I don't have a problem with you defending the guys from that era, but come one, your profile says your 25. It's ok to not always defend guys who played 30 years before you were born. I know you've seen a lot of film and stuff, but it's ok to appreciate the players that played in your lifetime, too.

[ThunderStruk022]

These Wilt-obssessed guys can be annoying... Like Kobe-stans.

Especially the ones in their 20s and 30s who weren't alive when he played and, for whatever reason, seem to think being all about the Wilt/Russell era guys is the cool thing to do. They think it's not as annoying as Kobe/Jordan/LeBron stans, but the old school/50s-70s stans can be just as annoying.

[Mach_3]

How the fcuk is that block at 1:25 not goaltending? That ball was CLEARLY coming down


No wonder he had such crazy ass block games

[Pointguard]

Cavs.. what do you say to people who say that the # of possessions per game and pace of the 60s/70s was much faster than the 90s or 00s and also the fact that there were much less games to play during the season and especially in the playoffs, where you only had to win 2 playoff seasons for a championship

Also just because wilt has the best peak as far as numbers makes him the superior peak player. It's a little fishy that Wilt's peak was 5 years apart (you said his peak was in 62 and 67) while Jordan had essentially a decade long peak and Shaq a little less (7-8 years).

Also both Jordan and Shaq had much more impressive playoff and finals peaks than wilt, showing up big when it really mattered. Both were also forced to play much more playoff games to win their champions (16 games to 8).

Not really. In the playoffs Wilt's had averages of in different seasons:
37/ 23/ 2
35/ 26.6/ 3.1
34.7/ 25.2/ 3.3
29.3/ 27.2/ 4.4
28/ 30.2/ 3
21.7/ 29.1/ 9


And who know how many blocks per game but I'm sure it was above 4. Which I would put up against Shaq's peak.

I'll quote the Legend below.

Legends66NBA7 writes:
In elimination games, from 1960-66, Wilt averaged 40ppg in 12 games. He had 3 of his 4 50+ point games were in those elimination games too. I don't have all the averages, but I'm pretty sure he's averaged in 20+ range in rebounds and his fg% is high.

In elimination games, from 1967-73, Wilt averaged 23ppg in 12 games (different roles). He wasn't the main scoring option anymore (he was defenive minded Wilt at this time), but still was able to pull out a 45/27 game, 30/27/11 blocks (reported), etc...

The bolded is a finals game.

So Wilt was stellar. I'll take 40 and 22 in playoff elimination games along with 33/26 playoff peak of 35 games and consider it among the best playoff/playoff elimination peaks.

[Young X]

One man owns the recordbook by a mile and his name wasn't MJ, nor was it Shaq. People are making up so many excuses for MJ and / or Shaq. I'm only pointing out the obvious.

What about owning the record book in the playoffs?

[Pointguard]

Sry kids, but.... no.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTSOHMtPvz8

No matter what way you try to slice it those guys peaks do not in any way shape or form touch Wilt's. Prime? Perhaps it's debatable due to rings if they are that important to you. But actual individual peak performance? GTFOH the guy owns the record book and nobody has ever even come close to rewriting it. Seriously some of these poll results are flat out embarrassing.

Anybody know the 26 blcok game referenced? Against who and when?

[ThunderStruk022]

Not really. In the playoffs Wilt's had averages of in different seasons:
37/ 23/ 2
35/ 26.6/ 3.1
34.7/ 25.2/ 3.3
29.3/ 27.2/ 4.4
28/ 30.2/ 3
21.7/ 29.1/ 9


And who know how many blocks per game but I'm sure it was above 4. Which I would put up against Shaq's peak.

I'll quote the Legend below.



The bolded is a finals game.

So Wilt was stellar. I'll take 40 and 22 in playoff elimination games along with 33/26 playoff peak of 35 games and consider it among the best playoff/playoff elimination peaks.

And we're just supposed to pretend Shaq's 40ish/20ish and 30/16 averages or so in a much slower era isn't just as impressive as Wilt's games?

You just can't take Wilt's numbers at face value, as impressive as they were. That goes for the blocks too (that wren't goal tends like some of the ones in the OP video). Like I said, Wilt's peak is right there at the top in my opinion. I'm also one that believes he would be a 30-33 ppg 15-17 rpg player in this era at his peak, too. I'm just saying you can't take Wilt's numbers at face value, especially when you compare them to Shaq's similar numbers in a much slower paced era.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Ridiculous. No. Peak MJ would be lucky to average Baylors partial season avg of 38ppg for a full season on slightly better efficiency in "Wilt's era". 46ppg is stupid to even suggest. MJ's peak is not miles beyond Oscars, or Baylors, or Barry's, or Jerry West's. You transport him into the era with increased offensive charge calls or particularly the few seasons with a narrower lane the guy is not going to be touching 40 points per game that is a totally baseless and random number you came up with.

You're out of your gourd if you don't think Jordan is averaging 43+ points for at least one season back then. Absolutely crazy.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Yeah, Jordan would never average 43 ppg despite owning seven of the eight best pace-normalized scoring seasons ever (points per 75 possessions). Guess whose name doesn't appear on that list? Wilt.

[Al Thornton]

this is especially insane because the op is like 14 wishing he was in his 70s

[CavaliersFTW]

You don't think Jordan, who averaged 35 and 37 ppg at his scoring best wouldn't touch 40 ppg in an era where the pace for teams was 20-30 possessions higher than the late 80s?

And when I say old school for you, dipshit, I mean the really old school. You seem to go to all ends to defends the players from the 50s, 60s, and 70s. If you're defending guys from later eras, that's cool and I apologize. I don't have a problem with you defending the guys from that era, but come one, your profile says your 25. It's ok to not always defend guys who played 30 years before you were born. I know you've seen a lot of film and stuff, but it's ok to appreciate the players that played in your lifetime, too.

It only looks like I defend the 60's and 70's more because a lot more hot garbage is said about those decades since it is devoid of readily available quality footage and coverage for fans to feast on. My all time favorite players to watch cover every decade like Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, MJ, Dr. J, Hakeem, D-Rob, Shaq, Lebron (yes, even though he left Clev) - list goes on and on. I treat basketball like how I treat paleontology (for which I study and have done work for). Having any precoceived notions (such as "weak era") before looking thoroughly at evidence is absolutely retarded, I go by what I learned from film and other forms of archival data not what 16-30 year old Kobe stans (who only assume what they know based on limited evidence at best) have told me. From what I see with my own eyes with my now expansive library of content - the 60's and 70's was not "weak" (particularly big men) and the guy who owns the record book who happend to play during those years deservedly owns that record book. And the distinction of having the highest peak of all time.

I think MJ would hit the same scoring ceilings all the players (except Wilt) hit back then and for good reason. There is only one reason Wilt scored what he scored and that was because of a unique set of circumstances and a special relationship between himself and '62 coach Mark McGuire (also '67 coach Alex Hannum because I also believe '67 qualifies as a peak season of Wilt's). Literally if you knew why / how Wilt scored 50 and why nobody else could back then you'd know that he and he alone was only ever going to have such a green light in the first place. Everybody has run into the mid 30's scoring ceiling except Wilt. Hell, even Wilt himself would have had a sub 40ppg scoring ceiling if he hadn't been influenced by McGuire. Place Jordan on any team in the 60's (including Wilt's Warriors) and he isn't going to have the permission Wilt had - nor the stamina - to play "every minute" and touch every offensive posession. Nor could he make the same total game impact via rebounds / blocks / etc. The offensive #'s "pace" of the 60's gets balanced out with multiple offensive weapons - not super inflated single superstar stats. Wilt is the ONLY one of the 60's superstars who had 40+ he's an exception to the rule not an example of it, the rest had offensive #'s resembling stars from more recent era's like the 1980's-present. They blipped a little in '62 but it's no more of a blip than say, the blip the modern league had when they removed hand checking. Nobody (except Wilt) touched 40 a game. If MJ played back then he'd be sharing touches with players like Baylor, or Oscar, or Pettit, or some other star (or perhaps a handful of journeymen or veterans). Peak MJ's rebound numbers in the 60's would def be up, but his assists would be about the same, and his offensive numbers would be about the same.

[Legends66NBA7]

What about owning the record book in the playoffs?

Wilt does have some of that too.

But that's why Jordan's case for the GOAT really takes a strong notion.

And we're just supposed to pretend Shaq's 40ish/20ish and 30/16 averages or so in a much slower era isn't just as impressive as Wilt's games?

When I did post the numbers, the other stats I didn't have (which I really needed to look at) were FGA. Now, nobody saying Shaq wasn't a great elimination game player, but Wilt probably is the best ever, was my point. The thread I was responding too was talking about how Wilt always folded under pressure and I wasn't trying to compare eras there.

Yeah, Jordan would never average 43 ppg despite owning seven of the eight best pace-normalized scoring seasons ever (points per 75 possessions).

We don't know if Jordan would be the same player from 84-93,95-98,01-03... if he played in Wilt's era. He would completely different if he was born in that time, playing in his prime.

this is especially insane because the op is like 14 wishing he was in his 70s

Yeah, just forget learning about history ?

[Poochymama]

For those of you that are interested. Here are MJ's Wilt-minute-adjusted-pace-adjusted scoring numbers through the first three peat, respective to Wilt's first 9 seasons.

84-85: 45.7 ppg
85-86: NA - not capable of playing Wilt minutes due to injury
86-87: 61.1 ppg
87-88: 52.9 ppg
88-89: 44.0 ppg
89-90: 47.9 ppg
90-91: 51.2 ppg
91-92: 45.8 ppg
92-93: 52.0 ppg

I know there's more to it than that(how would they use him, would the guys back then guard him with the same efficiency that the guys in his time guarded him, how often would he be called for traveling , how would the extra minutes affect his efficiency ), but it does help to put Jordan's first 9 seasons in somewhat close to the proper context. It's certainly more accurate than comparing their numbers straight up(non pace, non minute adjusted).

[CavaliersFTW]

For those of you that are interested. Here are MJ's Wilt-minute-adjusted-pace-adjusted scoring numbers through the first three peat, respective to Wilt's first 9 seasons.

84-85: 45.7 ppg
85-86: NA - not capable of playing Wilt minutes due to injury
86-87: 61.1 ppg
87-88: 52.9 ppg
88-89: 44.0 ppg
89-90: 47.9 ppg
90-91: 51.2 ppg
91-92: 45.8 ppg
92-93: 52.0 ppg

I know there's more to it than that(how would they use him, would the guys back then guard him with the same efficiency that the guys in his time guarded him, how often would he be called for traveling , how would the extra minutes affect his efficiency ), but it does help to put Jordan's first 9 seasons in somewhat close to the proper context. It's certainly more accurate than comparing there numbers straight up(non pace, non minute adjusted).

Not capable of playing Wilt's minutes - at all.