Who Is Luckier Bill Russell or Kobe Bryant?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Luck?

Well, Russell was esentially drafted by the Celtics (he was actually traded to them) to a Celtics team that had gone 39-33 the year before, AND, who ALSO drafted Tom Heinsohn in the same draft. Then, the very next season they would draft Sam Jones. A few years later, when Cousy was in the twilight of his career, they essentially replaced him with John Havlicek.

And as great as Russell was, going 10-0 in his game seven's, his teams won SEVEN of them by margins of four points, or less, including a couple of OT wins.

Of course, he also had Sam Jones hitting something like 25 game winners in the post-season (and eight in the Finals), and players like Havlicek making miraculous plays, or Nelson hitting miraculous shots to win game seven's.

BTW, Havlicek continued to play after Russell retired, ands within a couple of years, the Celts added Dave Cowens and then went 56-26, and an all-time best 68-14 in 72-73, and then won two titles in the next three seasons.


Kobe? How much luckier can it get when he goes to a loaded Laker team, and plays with a Shaq who was the best player in the game for some five straight seasons in the Kobe-era. A Shaq who put up the most dominant Finals in three straight years.

When Shaq left, the Lakers immediately plummetted to a 34-48 record. A couple of years later they stole Gasol, and the rest is history. Three straight Finals, and two more rings.

True, Kobe was instrumental in getting past the Spurs in the early 00's, and was their best player in those three straight Finals appearances at the end of the decade, but there was no question he was somewhat "lucky."

The fact was, there was TON of "luck" involved in BOTH players winning their rings. And, the game is a TEAM game, too. Neither win rings without a TON of support.

Wilt 2 rings.....

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]If PER is Crap then Why Is that the GOAT Is N

[LongLiveTheKing]

[QUOTE=Round Mound][B]If PER is Crap then Why Is that the GOAT Is N

[Rubio2Gasol]

Luck?

Well, Russell was esentially drafted by the Celtics (he was actually traded to them) to a Celtics team that had gone 39-33 the year before, AND, who ALSO drafted Tom Heinsohn in the same draft. Then, the very next season they would draft Sam Jones. A few years later, when Cousy was in the twilight of his career, they essentially replaced him with John Havlicek.

And as great as Russell was, going 10-0 in his game seven's, his teams won SEVEN of them by margins of four points, or less, including a couple of OT wins.

Of course, he also had Sam Jones hitting something like 25 game winners in the post-season (and eight in the Finals), and players like Havlicek making miraculous plays, or Nelson hitting miraculous shots to win game seven's.

BTW, Havlicek continued to play after Russell retired, ands within a couple of years, the Celts added Dave Cowens and then went 56-26, and an all-time best 68-14 in 72-73, and then won two titles in the next three seasons.


Kobe? How much luckier can it get when he goes to a loaded Laker team, and plays with a Shaq who was the best player in the game for some five straight seasons in the Kobe-era. A Shaq who put up the most dominant Finals in three straight years.

When Shaq left, the Lakers immediately plummetted to a 34-48 record. A couple of years later they stole Gasol, and the rest is history. Three straight Finals, and two more rings.

True, Kobe was instrumental in getting past the Spurs in the early 00's, and was their best player in those three straight Finals appearances at the end of the decade, but there was no question he was somewhat "lucky."

The fact was, there was TON of "luck" involved in BOTH players winning their rings. And, the game is a TEAM game, too. Neither win rings without a TON of support.

Agree , except you could make the argument that Kobe was just as important to their cumulative success in 01 and 02.He influenced the Sacramento and San Antonio series more and in 02 he was considered the best perimiter player in the league.

BTW I think Kobe's teams in 09 and 10 were relatively weak,but that problem was assuaged by the relative weakness of the opposition bar the Celts.

[jlauber]

Wilt 2 rings.....

Had he had TEN seasons with MAGIC, like Kareem, and he surpasses Kareem.

[jlauber]

Agree , except you could make the argument that Kobe was just as important to their cumulative success in 01 and 02.He influenced the Sacramento and San Antonio series more and in 02 he was considered the best perimiter player in the league.

BTW I think Kobe's teams in 09 and 10 were relatively weak,but that problem was assuaged by the relative weakness of the opposition bar the Celts.

Agreed (and I already acknowledged that in my post.)

[Round Mound]

If the stats don't favor Kobe(which most don't) they don't count. That's how his stans view it.

Indeed the REAL GOAT PLAYRES are NOT the ones with Rings Or More Rings but with Better Productions with Analysis Involed (BROKEN DOWN STATS) as It is showd in EFF, PER (per minute) and Plus/Minus. T

hose are The REAL GOAT PLAYERS who NEEDED RULE CHANGES or WHO RECIEVED MORE DOUBLE TEAMING..Who Made an IMPACT OFFENSIVFELY OR DEFENSIVELY etc

Hakeem and Barkley where much Better than Bryant...Yet THe Kiddos of Today Will Say Kobe is Better Cause He Won More Rings. Bull I Saw ALL OF THEM PLAY and Hakeem and Barkley where Better than Bryant.

[Hands of Iron]

Barkley > Magic and Bird in Terms of Impact...

[Round Mound]

Was Bird or Magic Doubled Team like Hakeem and Barkley?

Did They Force Rule Changes Like Barkley Did?

They Where Great but They Had the Teamates To Validate Their Greatness and Stats

Barkley and Hakeem where MORE IMPACFTUL PLAYERS than them despite being Less "Skilled" or "Nice To Watch" (like Kobe is).

I Am Just Saying Truths....(and Bird is my 2nd Favorite Player Ever)

[Kblaze8855]

Great players are at the top of any formula that is a combo of numbers we find positive with points taken for what we find negative. win shares per 48 give you pretty much the same players in a different order(same #1 though).

You could ask why MJ is #1 if its bad...and it could be asked why Yao is ahead of Moses Malone, Bill Russell, and Willis Reed if its good. And why Brad Miller is ahead of Mutombo, Dave cowens, and Nate thurmond. Or why Marbury is ahead of Isiah Thomas, scottie Pippen, Kidd, and Tiny Archibald.

I could get roughly as accurate results with a formula made in 3 minutes. Ive seen people here come up with much simpler ones that result in the same basic players at the top and the same idiotic conclusions popping up hundreds of times.

Its just some numbers a guy decided to assign a value to...because he felt like it.

It matters as much as that mans opinion does. To me...his opinion means nothing.

[Legends66NBA7]

Bill Russell joined a college team that had never been to the NCAA tournament and won 55 games in a row and back to back titles....that college may have produced nobody since...if so it was like...Bill cartwright. College has not been to the final four since he left. couple nice runs in the 70s but nothing in the 35-40 years since.

He then went and led his team to a gold medal winning by a record point margin. At which time he joins a team with a coach who had 16 years of never winning and a group of players who had never been to the finals. They won it all. Then lost in 7 with him injured the next finals. Then won 8 in a row and 10 of 11.

He retired.

They missed the playoffs back to back using those high picks to draft back to back superstars to rebuild for the 70s.

Bill Russell wasnt getting lucky. He was making every team he played for great.

If any of the teams he won on proved themselves capable of winning before he got there or after he left...he was lucky to share time with them.

Everyone who played with Russell was lucky to play with him. Not the other way around.

Nice to see this post got looked over.

I wonder why.

[Pushxx]

This thread is filled with more player bias than I've ever seen on ISH.

Daaaaaaamn.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Stop grouping Barkley with Hakeem lmao.

[Kblaze8855]

Barkley and Hakeem where MORE IMPACFTUL PLAYERS than them despite being Less "Skilled" or "Nice To Watch" (like Kobe is).

I Am Just Saying Truths....

And what exactly caused the Celtics to become a 60 win team in Birds rookie season up from 29 when they added nobody else of note and actually lost some talent?

His teammates of the future?

Jerry Sloan had him as the GOAT before he so much as played a finals game:



But it was teammates and success that got him his status...

People couldnt see he was an all time elite player the moment they glanced at him. It took riiiiiiiiiiiiings and such....

[Hands of Iron]

Stop grouping Barkley with Hakeem lmao.

You see I removed Hakeem from his quote above, right?