Magic Johnson vs Larry Bird. Year-by-Year.

[eliteballer]

How the fuck is everything even until the '85 finals? Larry averaged 29/11/7, 1.6 spg, 1.2 bpg on 52/43/88 shooting.

Bird didn't just have a thumb injury, he had an assortment of injuries, they were mentioned during the series. Look at how limited Larry was in the Philly series. The first 2 series, Bird averages 30.3 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 6.1 apg on 49% in 9 games despite missing a game in the Cleveland series with bursitis on bone chips in his elbow.

He then averages just 20.8 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6 apg on 42% in the Philly series. But yeah, he was healthy, despite numerous reports to the contrary and his performance suffering greatly.

and Magic averaged 18/6/13/1.5 on 57/84. Gee, I wonder if Birds dropoff in production had anything to do with the fact that the Sixers were a FAR FAR superior team to those he played in the first two rounds. Magic outplayed Bird statistically in 84 and completely outplayed in him in 87, so for you to jump around and assume Bird would outplay him in 85 based on a couple of tit tat injuries, is beyond laughable. All the evidence points in Magics favor.

Bird usually didn't guard smaller players, in fact, he guarded power forwards quite often. Neither were known for their man to man defense, but I haven't seen Bird exploited the way Magic was defensively. If you're going to give Magic credit for his rebounding because of his position you can't ignore his inability to guard smaller players since he faced them much more than Bird because of his position.


He doesn't have a great argument, he was clearly not even the best player on his team at that point. His argument is reasonable, but more looking at the season on paper than actually watching their games from those seasons.

And Magic over Bird in '85 is just laughable. Bird was about as clear cut of a best player as you'll see. If you're going to choose Magic over Bird because of a better finals series then you should remain consistent and rank Kareem over Magic because he was clearly the best player in that series.

The difference is, Kareem and Magic were debatable in '85, Bird and Magic really weren't. You have to wait until '87 for that.

I'm saying Bird WOULD get burned worse than Magic if he had to guard those players, and usually Magic was switched with the SG if there was great potential for being burned. Magic wasn't as big a liability as you're trying to make him out to be, especially when you see how teams purposely attacked Bird because he was such a bad man defender of ANY position. You think Maagic couldn't have played forward like Bird? He played PG because the advantages FAR outweighed any negatives. That positional versatility is an advantage over Bird. As for Magic being superior in 82 and 83, one only need look at their peformances in the playoffs. Magic was putting up historical numbers while Bird was choking to the Bucks and failing to crack 42% shooting in either run.

[mehyaM24]

Pointguard
Magic not only controlled the pace but he made all the major decisions. When they ran, and when they didn't, what side of the floor the play would flow and who got it where. Do we wait for Kareem or do we not. When do we set up Worthy instead of Kareem. Kareem came down the court late and was neatly placed on the blocks. He wasn't the leader, he wasn't the inspirational leader, he barely rebounded, he wasn't the first option, he wasn't the glue - he bocked a few shots and posted up. The majority of execution, leadership, team guidance, excitement, attention to detail, risk taking and setting up was on Magic. At the end of the day, Magic's leadership, decision making, winning ways had more impact on the team than Kareem had on any of his previous teams when he did much more than he did on those 80 Laker teams.

agreed...and adding onto your point,la had prime kareem for years before magic....and year after year of failure....what happens when magic comes? year after year of success with an old kareem

i always hear things like "shaq had kobe"..."shaq had wade". who says kareem had oscar robertson and magic? mj(magic) and shaq were far more valuable than kareem and kobe.

[Pointguard]

I'm saying Bird WOULD get burned worse than Magic if he had to guard those players, and usually Magic was switched with the SG if there was great potential for being burned. Magic wasn't as big a liability as you're trying to make him out to be, especially when you see how teams purposely attacked Bird because he was such a bad man defender of ANY position. You think Maagic couldn't have played forward like Bird? He played PG because the advantages FAR outweighed any negatives. That positional versatility is an advantage over Bird. As for Magic being superior in 82 and 83, one only need look at their peformances in the playoffs. Magic was putting up historical numbers while Bird was choking to the Bucks and failing to crack 42% shooting in either run.

Excellent Post.

I didn't know the playoff difference was that humongous in those two years. I do remember thinking that Bird had problems in the playoffs but I didn't know it was that bad. In what way are people even thinking about giving Bird 1982??? Its not close. It wasn't close in the regular season. Not only did Magic win FMVP, but he was, like you said, flirting with a triple double in the regular season.

Regular Season 1982
Magic..18.6 ppg 9.6ast. 9.5reb 527% 226% 3pt 3.7 TO
Bird....22.9ppg 5.8 ast. 10.9reb 503% 212% 3pt 3.3 TO

Magic lead the league in steals. Magic has one of the best years of a player showing great balance and judgment. The rebounds are very close as are the turnovers. Two huge plus for Magic. Magic gets distance on shooting percentage and obviously assist. The shooting percentage coupled with scoring is close to even but we'll give Bird a slight edge.


Playoffs 1982
Bird.. .427% .822FT 17.8ppg 12.5reb 5.6ast 80%FT
Magic .529% .828FT 17.4ppg 11.3reb 9.3ast 83%FT

Magic wins Finals MVP. Bird has a very bad shooting percentage for that time period. Bird barely outscores Magic. Bird has only one decent shooting game in two series (12 games) and had other guys hitting at a much better clip and who were scorers.

The funny thing is that Magic was like Kidd in that stats don't really show his impact. He rebounded with more value than any other rebounder. He lead the league in steals and that too had more value than any other defensive play in the game because it was usually a 4 point reversal. His control of pace wasn't recorded, and neither was his ability to keep everybody in the offense.

A lot of people here either did not see 1982 and just assumed Bird was a more polished player. Magic was much further along in the playoffs the first four years. His spontaniety and adaption to different teams was just a lot better than Birds. I couldn't tell if it was good defenses or the playoffs that got Bird off of his game. Magic was playoff ready since day one and therefore was further along than Bird was. Until '84 Bird was unpredicatable and, in general had a bad shooting touch in the playoffs. Though, like Magic, he had all around game he could resort to when his shot went astray as it often did. Magic used better judgment to navigate his shooting woes but that rarely happened in the years in question here.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Magic Johnson averaged a near triple double in 82. Who cares about the coach? They won the chip.

If people are going to bring up Magic's intangibles then that's certainly relevant. Any player today gets slammed for anything remotely similar.

Intangibles were brought up in the Magic/Kareem debate for '82. Kareem also won a title, went about his business, didn't try to play GM and was the best player on that championship team.

and Magic averaged 18/6/13/1.5 on 57/84. Gee, I wonder if Birds dropoff in production had anything to do with the fact that the Sixers were a FAR FAR superior team to those he played in the first two rounds. Magic outplayed Bird statistically in 84 and completely outplayed in him in 87, so for you to jump around and assume Bird would outplay him in 85 based on a couple of tit tat injuries, is beyond laughable. All the evidence points in Magics favor.

Magic's regular season was not as impressive as Bird's, and it's not particularly close.

at you acting like the numerous reports of Bird's injuries were bullshit.

Here's a list of Bird's injuries from a May 20th, 1985 article, and it's basically what I remembering them saying throughout the finals broadcasts.

[QUOTE]Larry Bird floating bone chips

[Hands of Iron]

Bird was a better basketball player up until his injuries began to surface.

[Math2]

Bird was a better basketball player up until his injuries began to surface.

Yup, but the fact that Magic continued at such a high level (hell, he could have kept going after HIV) for those extra couple years puts him above Bird. Barely.

[Hands of Iron]

Yup, but the fact that Magic continued at such a high level (hell, he could have kept going after HIV) for those extra couple years puts him above Bird. Barely.

No problem with that at all. He ended up accomplishing more in the end and outlasted Larry. He was never far behind to begin with. That was probably the most blunt, worst post I've made so far on here. I do consider it the truth, though. We can talk numbers all day long, particular seasons and series and this and that. Overall, Bird was a better scorer, shooter and rebounder. Even at Magic's forte, Bird registers in all likelihood as the greatest passing forward there's ever been. He is - at worst - amongst the top three all-time clutch players. He will take over games and murder you in cold blood. Obviously neither were great defensively on the ball, but Larry was phenomenal as far as playing team defense when healthy and it's thanks in large part to his basketball IQ, instincts and relentless hustle. Damn near Perfect Player.

[juju151111]

If people are going to bring up Magic's intangibles then that's certainly relevant. Any player today gets slammed for anything remotely similar.

Intangibles were brought up in the Magic/Kareem debate for '82. Kareem also won a title, went about his business, didn't try to play GM and was the best player on that championship team.



Magic's regular season was not as impressive as Bird's, and it's not particularly close.

at you acting like the numerous reports of Bird's injuries were bullshit.

Here's a list of Bird's injuries from a May 20th, 1985 article, and it's basically what I remembering them saying throughout the finals broadcasts.



I don't think it's a coincidence that with numerous reports of injuries, Bird's performance suffers greatly.

No evidence points in Magic's favor. It's complete revisionist history to rank Magic over Bird in '85.

Your entire case is that Magic had a better finals series than Bird. Well, Kareem had a better finals series than both, so by this logic, he was better than both.

Are you willing to be consistent and admit this? Not that I believe you're finally going to answer this question because you've continued to dodge it.

The difference is, Magic vs Kareem was debatable in '85. Bird was clearly better than both and anyone in the league at that time.



Bird wasn't in a position to defend guards so I don't really care what either of us think would happen. He did a better job defending the players he actually defended than Magic did and was also the better help defender.

Magic didn't have the half court skill set to be ranked over Bird in '82 and '83. No real outside shot or post game.

Bird was close to getting voted MVP over Moses Malone who had a historic season in '82. Nobody else got a significant amount of votes. And that was with Bird dealing with injuries throughout that season.

I am sorry, but thats BS. Magic outlayed Bird twice in the finals and in 84 his stats were still good. I am not paying this injury excuse, when Bird never really outplayed him Magic. Why does it matter if Magic didn't master his Post game in 82? He was more athlethic back then and ur missing the fact that he averged a near triple double.

[Champ]

I am sorry, but thats BS. Magic outlayed Bird twice in the finals and in 84 his stats were still good. I am not paying this injury excuse, when Bird never really outplayed him Magic. Why does it matter if Magic didn't master his Post game in 82? He was more athlethic back then and ur missing the fact that he averged a near triple double.

Bird outplayed Magic in the '84 finals.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I am sorry, but thats BS. Magic outlayed Bird twice in the finals and in 84 his stats were still good. I am not paying this injury excuse, when Bird never really outplayed him Magic. Why does it matter if Magic didn't master his Post game in 82? He was more athlethic back then and ur missing the fact that he averged a near triple double.

First of all, Bird did have a better finals series in '84 than Magic, and what does Magic outplaying Bird in the finals twice mean? It's not like it's inevitable no matter how many times they play each other as we saw in '84 when Bird outplayed Magic. 1 series doesn't decide who the better player is either.

It's not an "injury excuse", he was injured. It's just a fact.

Why does it matter that he didn't have a post game back then? Because his half court game was limited, especially without an outside shot too.

I'm well aware of the fact that he nearly averaged a triple double, I'm not missing that. But it doesn't make him a better basketball player than Bird was in 1982, and certainly not better than Kareem was. And 1982 Magic was certainly not the player he'd become from '87-'91, or '84-'86 for that matter.

Was that post supposed to convince me?

[BlackVVaves]

Excellent Post.

I didn't know the playoff difference was that humongous in those two years. I do remember thinking that Bird had problems in the playoffs but I didn't know it was that bad. In what way are people even thinking about giving Bird 1982??? Its not close. It wasn't close in the regular season. Not only did Magic win FMVP, but he was, like you said, flirting with a triple double in the regular season.

Regular Season 1982
Magic..18.6 ppg 9.6ast. 9.5reb 527% 226% 3pt 3.7 TO
Bird....22.9ppg 5.8 ast. 10.9reb 503% 212% 3pt 3.3 TO

Magic lead the league in steals. Magic has one of the best years of a player showing great balance and judgment. The rebounds are very close as are the turnovers. Two huge plus for Magic. Magic gets distance on shooting percentage and obviously assist. The shooting percentage coupled with scoring is close to even but we'll give Bird a slight edge.


Playoffs 1982
Bird.. .427% .822FT 17.8ppg 12.5reb 5.6ast 80%FT
Magic .529% .828FT 17.4ppg 11.3reb 9.3ast 83%FT

Magic wins Finals MVP. Bird has a very bad shooting percentage for that time period. Bird barely outscores Magic. Bird has only one decent shooting game in two series (12 games) and had other guys hitting at a much better clip and who were scorers.

The funny thing is that Magic was like Kidd in that stats don't really show his impact. He rebounded with more value than any other rebounder. He lead the league in steals and that too had more value than any other defensive play in the game because it was usually a 4 point reversal. His control of pace wasn't recorded, and neither was his ability to keep everybody in the offense.

A lot of people here either did not see 1982 and just assumed Bird was a more polished player. Magic was much further along in the playoffs the first four years. His spontaniety and adaption to different teams was just a lot better than Birds. I couldn't tell if it was good defenses or the playoffs that got Bird off of his game. Magic was playoff ready since day one and therefore was further along than Bird was. Until '84 Bird was unpredicatable and, in general had a bad shooting touch in the playoffs. Though, like Magic, he had all around game he could resort to when his shot went astray as it often did. Magic used better judgment to navigate his shooting woes but that rarely happened in the years in question here.

I share these same thoughts, but for once didn't feel like creating a book long post, LoL.

Waiting for a rebuttal with actual evidence to combat this (Magic was the better player in 1982) from any of the posters who said/believe Bird was the better player that season.

[juju151111]

First of all, Bird did have a better finals series in '84 than Magic, and what does Magic outplaying Bird in the finals twice mean? It's not like it's inevitable no matter how many times they play each other as we saw in '84 when Bird outplayed Magic. 1 series doesn't decide who the better player is either.

It's not an "injury excuse", he was injured. It's just a fact.

Why does it matter that he didn't have a post game back then? Because his half court game was limited, especially without an outside shot too.

I'm well aware of the fact that he nearly averaged a triple double, I'm not missing that. But it doesn't make him a better basketball player than Bird was in 1982, and certainly not better than Kareem was. And 1982 Magic was certainly not the player he'd become from '87-'91, or '84-'86 for that matter.

Was that post supposed to convince me?

I said Magic tats were still good in 84 finals not that he outplayed him. The fact is Bird got outplayed twice. What did Bird do in 1982 then have a poor performance in the playoffs. Magic averaged a near triple double and then won finals MVP

[KevinNYC]

A team that "almost entirely depended on Bird" would not have as a Finals' MVP (1981) another player but Bird. OK, you may argue that the voting was flawed, but a team that depended on Bird that much would not easily win Finals' games when Bird would only score 8 and 12 points respectively, regardless of the rest of his game, unless maybe he played some Bill Russell level defense (than again, we all know Russell himself had plenty of help).
Also, a team that dependent on Bird would not include multiple other All-Stars (not even multiple All-Stars including Bird, but multiple All-Stars except Bird), including the 1981 ASG MVP, it would not have a guy producing close to 19/10/3 blocks/54.5% FG in just 28.0 mpg (for PER lovers, that's 25.2, compared to Bird's 19.9), it would not use Kevin McHale as a 6th man, it would not have 8 of its players play for 80-82 games, etc.
Enough with this "Celtics were not deep" myth.

McHale was a rookie in 1981 and played 20 minutes a game, just slightly more than the 19 played by Rick Robey or Gerald Henderson.

In the game Bird scored 8 points and the Celtics won, he had 13 rebounds, 10 assists and 5 steals and two blocks. In the game he scored 12 points and they won he had 12 rebounds and 8 assists and a block. So he pretty active otherwise. But you're right, when the Celtics defense was playing well and they got out on the break, that team could roll you over.

[KevinNYC]

it's acknowledged by everybody that Magic and Bird's popularity ushered in the modern nba...ratings, game show on tv live....finals airing LIVE,etc



Nobody since russell in the 1960s has gotten 3 consecutive mvp awards except Bird. Do you think it's a legit accomplishment, or do you think it was the league and reporters working to market the nba to white audience?

not Jordan,KAJ, Magic,Moses,Shaq, Duncan,Dream,...literally nobody else has done it.

I say there's no legit way that anyone can say that Bird enjoyed the most dominant 3 year stretch(relative to other players) in the NBA....post 1970..and that the 3 consecutive mvps were bullshit, to promote a white superstar to mainstream audiences.

Bird was in fact a Great player....an alltime great..legit superstar and winner..but I'm calling bull on the fact that he got award three straight years ...first and only player since Russell.

So who else should have won the MVP in 1984 or 85 or 86?

[Hands of Iron]

So who else should have won the MVP in 1984 or 85 or 86?

Nobody.