09 Kobe vs 12 Bron, playoff run POLL

[RazorBaLade]

I do agree Orlando was a pretty good defensive team. But an injured Jameer? He had a career season that year. I thought OKC was pretty damn good, they took out the Spurs, who SO many people had as favorites because of how hot they were. Durant played really well throughout the playoffs, Westbrook had his moments. I have to admit that Harden was a huge joke in the finals, but that doesn't discredit the team as a whole. They were not underdogs at all.

yeah but they got to the finals without him! Alston was doing work. Yea harden let the team down, I mean if OKC was playing with harden as 15ppg guy and heat won.. damn. but lakers killed orl and orl was good man , real good. Kobe came out first game and set the tone for the series!

okc was not the underdogs, yea, but hey ORL was underdogs against cavs that year so we all know how this stuff can turn out.

[General]

People discredit Kobe because Shaq won the FMVP those times. If Kobe won them there would be no discussion about this. Lebron was the clear leader on this team, which why his championship isnt being treated like Kobe's first 3.

Also, do you sincerely think Kobe's competition was good in 09? What was so good about the teams he faced? Orlando in the finals with an injured Jameer?

Kobe 2001 Playoffs: 29 Points, 7 Rebounds, 6 Assists
Lebron 2012 Playoffs: 30 points, 10 Rebounds, 5 Assists

Kobe has first option numbers, he was a top 3 player in the league, with Duncan and Shaq above him. You do realize that this version of Lebron would also be 1b option to prime Shaq?

[DatAsh]

I won't go so far as to say that the answer to this question is an easy, no questions asked, lopsided domination in favor of Lebron, but I will say that Lebron does have a somewhat clear advantage.

Lebron was better in virtually every area. He scored more, on better efficiency, assisted more, rebounded way more, and was the far superior defender.

Kobe's only real case IMO is the fact that Lebron had more help, and while I can agree that that is a somewhat legitimate argument, I don't know if it holds as much water as it normally would in this particular case. Lebron's team, although unquestionably better than 09' Kobe's team, is extraordinarily top heavy, and arguably constructed on the foundation of just three players. Now consider the fact that one of those three players was injured for much of the playoffs, and the other was playing on an injured knee(that or he's just declined). Those two factors somewhat counter the fact that Kobe played with an inferior supporting cast. Also, while I would generally agree that Wade>>>>Gasol, I don't think it's as cut and dry in this case.

Wade averaged 23/5/4 on 46%
Gasol averaged 18/11/3 on 54%

IMO it's closer than what you would normally think.

All that being said, what really put's Lebron's performance over the top is the fact that had the biggest games when they mattered most: the 45/15/5 on 73% game vs Boston to hold off elimination will go down as one of the greatest games of all time. Also, the triple double in the clinching game of the NBA finals will certainly be remembered as one of those shining moments in NBA finals history.

Kobe's run was epic, and among the best ever, but Lebron's was more epic, both in terms of how well they played, and how much was riding on each man's success/failure.

[Kews1]

Kobe easily. He took harder shots and was more important for his team than Lebron

lol his entire playoff run is based on the difficultly of his shots? haha idiot

[TheeBeast]

lol his entire playoff run is based on the difficultly of his shots? haha idiot

Implying I should describe his entire playoff run?


Kobe was by far the best player on his team, his help came from an 18ppg Pau Gasol and an injured Andrew Bynum. On the other Hand Lebron had Dwayne Wade and Bosh, both of which Bynum couldn't even match at that time.

[RazorBaLade]

I won't go so far as to say that the answer to this question is an easy, no questions asked, lopsided domination in favor of Lebron, but I will say that Lebron does have a somewhat clear advantage.

Lebron was better in virtually every area. He scored more, on better efficiency, assisted more, rebounded way more, and was the far superior defender.

Kobe's only real case IMO is the fact that Lebron had more help, and while I can agree that that is a somewhat legitimate argument, I don't know if it holds as much water as it normally would in this particular case. Lebron's team, although unquestionably better than 09' Kobe's team, is extraordinarily top heavy, and arguably constructed on the foundation of just three players. Now consider the fact that one of those three players was injured for much of the playoffs, and the other was playing on an injured knee(that or he's just declined). Those two factors somewhat counter the fact that Kobe played with an inferior supporting cast. Also, while I would generally agree that Wade>>>>Gasol, I don't think it's as cut and dry in this case.

Wade averaged 23/5/4 on 46%
Gasol averaged 18/11/3 on 54%

IMO it's closer than what you would normally think.

All that being said, what really put's Lebron's performance over the top is the fact that had the biggest games when they mattered most: the 45/15/5 on 73% game vs Boston to hold off elimination will go down as one of the greatest games of all time. Also, the triple double in the clinching game of the NBA finals will certainly be remembered as one of those shining moments in NBA finals history.

Kobe's run was epic, and among the best ever, but Lebron's was more epic, both in terms of how well they played, and how much was riding on each man's success/failure.

the misleading thing about those stats is that wades are lowered by 3-4 games that were just PATHETIC, but gasol was consistent and kept that avg. Every game besides 4 or so tho wade was even better than those numbers indicate. He had 3 spectacular games in the finals which is crazy compared to pau especially 09.

Nonetheless, good post.

[imdaman99]

kobe and its damn well close. defensive specialists that would have been guarding lebron for a lot of their games were missing... aka shump and bradley. dont try and tell me that these defensive studs would not have been on lebron in their series

[DatAsh]

Kobe 2001 Playoffs: 29 Points, 7 Rebounds, 6 Assists
Lebron 2012 Playoffs: 30 points, 10 Rebounds, 5 Assists

Actually it should be 30/10/6 since he averaged 5.6 assists, but you're point still stands.

[PickernRoller]

lol his entire playoff run is based on the difficultly of his shots? haha idiot

Gotta love how OP makes a thread with the intention of actually winning the poll and can barely make a concrete argument. Hopefully noone bails OP out...a deterrent to more stupid threads like this? ....and not the first time either....

[Bernie Nips]

Kobe.


This is Lebron's so called "sidekick"

Wade vs Pacers
Game 4: 13-23 FG, 9 reb, 6 ast, 1 stl, 1 blk, 30 points
Game 5: 10-17 FG, 3 reb, 2 ast, 2 stl, 1 blk, 28 points
Game 6: 17-25 FG, 10 reb, 3 ast, 2 stl, 41 points

Dude can still run a team of his own, even with a bad knee.

How fun is cherry picking games to prove a point? Check this out in the 08/09 run for the Lakers!

Lamar Odom vs Utah
26/15/4/3 on 66% shooting!

Paul Gasol vs Utah
22/6 on 82% shooting!

Pau Gasol vs Houston
22/14/4 on 70% shooting!
21/18 on 52% shooting!

Pau Gasol vs Denver
17/17/3 on 63% shooting!
20/12/6/3 on 67% shooting!

Take the casts out of it.

LeBron played better in all aspects of the game (scoring, rebounding, passing, defense). LeBron had to face a much more difficult opponent in the Finals. Simple as that.

[RazorBaLade]

How fun is cherry picking games to prove a point? Check this out in the 08/09 run for the Lakers!

Lamar Odom vs Utah
26/15/4/3 on 66% shooting!

Paul Gasol vs Utah
22/6 on 82% shooting!

Pau Gasol vs Houston
22/14/4 on 70% shooting!
21/18 on 52% shooting!

Pau Gasol vs Denver
17/17/3 on 63% shooting!
20/12/6/3 on 67% shooting!

Take the casts out of it.

LeBron played better in all aspects of the game (scoring, rebounding, passing, defense). LeBron had to face a much more difficult opponent in the Finals. Simple as that.

first of all no, dont take casts out of it. u dont need to cherry pick i agree but their avgs matter! Orl vs okc is very arguable.

Hakeems run is considered awesome because he had no help, kobe had less help than bron.. it has to be a factor. MAYBE u think its not enough of a factor to make up for the negligible stat and impact differences but its a factor

[I LUV KOBE]

If 2009 Kobe played in Miami Heat instead of Lebron, they could easily have 2 rings by now..

[DatAsh]

the misleading thing about those stats is that wades are lowered by 3-4 games that were just PATHETIC, but gasol was consistent and kept that avg. Every game besides 4 or so tho wade was even better than those numbers indicate. He had 3 spectacular games in the finals which is crazy compared to pau especially 09.

Nonetheless, good post.

I can agree with this.

The good thing about averages is that they allow you to more easily see the big picture. They tend to make up for the basic selective human memory bias, and give a more accurate representation of a player's "average performance"(You could even somewhat judge a players overall consistency with other statistical measures, but that gets a bit more complicated).

The bad thing about averages is that they don't show you how a player achieved that average. They don't show you if a player came through big when it mattered most. They don't show you that a player shrank when it really didn't matter at all. All they show you is the "average".

[TerranOP]

Would James win fmvp in those years? **** no.
Consider context dickheads. You guys put way too much value into fmvp, when Kobe played next to prime Shaq. Guy was still top 5 player in 01 and top 3 in 02. Lmao

You're not even making the correct comparison. James was clearly the leader on the team and he is being discredited for having Wade and Bosh. Do you believe that's fair? I'm responding to why it ISN'T fair. I personally think Kobe was incredibly important during the 3-peat. I was responding to why people tend to say that they aren't his rings. I would definitely say that Lebron's ring means more for him than, say, the 2000 ring for Kobe. Most people would agree. Why don't you actually read before getting defensive and ramming a stick up your ass?

[Crimzon]

kobe and its damn well close. defensive specialists that would have been guarding lebron for a lot of their games were missing... aka shump and bradley. dont try and tell me that these defensive studs would not have been on lebron in their series

This was post-up Bron, not attack from the perimeter Bron.. He would've killed then in the post.

This isnt a second account and the vote won't count but I'd vote James based on whats already been posted in this thread..