GOAT's SPHA Finalists - Top 5 Players by Year (1980-1999)

[jlip]

This is like asking who deserved the finals mvp in 1980 based on there performance for the series.

Anyway, Magic was better the first five games of the series and Worthy was better the last 2, but it was the last 2 games that gave LA the victory as thru the first 5 they were down 3-2.

G.O.A.T. beat me to it above, even though I think he meant games 4 and 5 (regarding Worthy's struggles.) Even though I think that Kareem deserved the '80 MVP the circumstances between '88 and '80 were different. Kareem didn't even play the championship clinching game while Magic had a dominating and historic performance. In '88, while Worthy had a dominating clinching game, Magic not only played but yet had a great performance himself although not as impressive as Worthy's. IMO, Worthy's Finals MVP was significantly more a "prisoner of the moment" award than Magic's 80 Finals MVP was.

[Da_Realist]

G.O.A.T. beat me to it above, even though I think he meant games 4 and 5 (regarding Worthy's struggles.) Even though I think that Kareem deserved the '80 MVP the circumstances between '88 and '80 were different. Kareem didn't even play the championship clinching game while Magic had a dominating and historic performance. In '88, while Worthy had a dominating clinching game, Magic not only played but yet had a great performance himself although not as impressive as Worthy's. IMO, Worthy's Finals MVP was significantly more a "prisoner of the moment" award than Magic's 80 Finals MVP was.

I still think Magic deserved it in 88. He played heroically in Game 2 with the flu. He put on a passing clinic in Game 3 (they could make an education video out of this game). And his 19 assists were overshadowed by Isiah's heroics in Game 6. Worthy's performance in Game 7 was epic, though.

[jlip]

I still think Magic deserved it in 88. He played heroically in Game 2 with the flu. He put on a passing clinic in Game 3 (they could make an education video out of this game). And his 19 assists were overshadowed by Isiah's heroics in Game 6. Worthy's performance in Game 7 was epic, though.

I definitely agree. That's the general point I was trying to make to the other poster.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I've made some amendments to 1990 & 1992

I like where these lists are at much better now...

1990

1. Jordan
2. Magic
3, Barkley
4. Ewing
5. Isiah
Next Five: Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Bird, Drexler

1992

1. Jordan
2. Drexler
3. Malone
4. Ewing
5. Robinson
Next Five: Pippen, Mullin, Hakeem, Barkley, Rodman

EDIT: Changed my mind on 1992

Glad I could help, interestingly, some of my top 4s and tops 5 were identical despite initially just posting my best player lists.

I do also think that Jordan was easily the most significant player of 1998, but I would like to defend Shaq's '98 WCF. He had a much worse series in '97 when he wasn't swept, but I thought he played very well in '98, and most at the time were saying so as well.

Sports Illustrated article about game 4.

O'Neal had another outstanding game with 38 points, including 11 straight Lakers points down the stretch.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...akers_archive/

From an article after the series.

Except for a poor Game 1, Shaquille O'Neal was magnificent in defeat. And yesterday was no exception.

LA Times article about game 3

Somehow the Lakers have managed to make Shaquille O'Neal irrelevant. No matter what he does, they simply can't beat the Utah Jazz.

When O'Neal had a subpar Game 1, no one else picked up for him. When he came through with 39 points and 15 rebounds in Game 3 Friday night, no one else supported him.

The Lakers can't do anything without him. And they can't do anything if he is the only one out there working.

O'Neal took 30 shots Friday, more than a third of the Laker field-goal attempts. He made 17 and was the only Laker who attempted more than four shots to shoot better than 50%. The way things were going, the Lakers would have been better off with Shaq taking free throws than the rest of the players shooting jumpers.

While the Lakers are getting beat by the likes of Howard Eisley, Chris Morris and Shandon Anderson, none of the other three Laker all-stars--or anyone else, for that matter--can beat the Jazz.

It isn't O'Neal's job to shoot three-pointers, and the Lakers who are supposed to do that have made only 13 of 58 (22%), including five of 19 in Game 3.

Nick Van Exel was one for eight on three-pointers and two for 13 overall in Game 3, which snuffed out his seven assists. Eddie Jones was six for 19.

After Shaq, no other Laker reached double-digits until Jones made a reverse dunk with 10:03 left in the fourth quarter. Even that didn't seem like vintage Jones; the ball hit the rim and crawled over.

Jones tried to be aggressive in the first quarter, but the way the Shaq-oriented Laker offense is set up right now, there's nothing for Jones to do but go one-on-one. It wasn't working.

"If you have a big dominating guy like Shaq, you want to get Shaq the ball, you want him to do his thing," Van Exel said. "I really don't know what we can do. We run a lot of motion sets, but we haven't got much out of them. We want to go to our superstar. That's what we're doing, we're living by it."

http://articles.latimes.com/1998/may/23/sports/sp-52813

That was after a game that Shaq had 39 points and 15 rebounds in, and two other Lakers scored in double figures, Eddie Jones at 16 points on 6/19 shooting and Nick Van Exel on 10 points on 2/13 shooting.

Outside of Shaq, the Lakers offensive players were terrible in the series. Shaq averaged 32 ppg on 56% shooting, while his second option Jones averaged 15 on 41%, Van Exel averaged 9 on 24%, Kobe averaged 10 on 37%, Fox averaged 9.8 on 41%, Fisher averaged 5.5 on 35% and Horry averaged 4.5 on 36%. I don't think anyone could win with that type of support.

I think Shaq does have a case over Malone in '98 for being a more significant player.

As NugzHeat mentioned, George Karl and Bob Weiss were calling Shaq the best post player of all time after his dominant series vs Seattle. He scored at will, while getting double teamed, made great passes out of doubles to set up his teammates and was protecting the paint with a bunch of blocked shots. It was one of his finest all around series. He averaged 31/10/4/4 on 63% shooting in the series.

I think that respected people in the game speaking that highly of Shaq's level of play was more than I've ever heard people say about Malone. But you could argue that Malone being in the finals, beating Shaq's Lakers and having a legitimate case for MVP makes him the right choice for 2nd.

[PTB Fan]

[QUOTE=G.O.A.T]

1980
1. Kareem
2. Doctor J
3. Bird
4. Magic
5. Moses[QUOTE]

Pretty much agreed here on all. Kareem's 80 season is arguably the greatest of all time. He had too many historical performances here and played great throughout the entire RS, PS and Finals. Others are fine with me.

1981
1. Bird
2. Doctor J
3. Moses
4. Kareem
5. Gervin

I've got Moses at No.1 here, Kareem at #2, Doc at #3, Bird at #4 and #5 is Gervin. I decided to go with Moses, simply because few expected the Rockets to get out of the first round, let alone get to the Finals and push Boston to 6 games.

http://news.google.c...es+malone&hl=en

http://news.google.c...1,1394580&hl=en

The second newspaper link is so surprised that they thought the Rockets had no chance at all.

Game: 1

http://news.google.c...3,2965907&hl=en

Celtics win it, with them pretty much dominating the Rockets on the offensive glass. Malone, who was pretty much doing those things to his opponents his entire career, wasn't that dominant on his side of the glass to prevent that as his defensive rebounding wasn't quite that good. This ended as a great advantage for Boston, who won the first game of the series because of this, which is interesting. Larry's praised here for 18/21/9 (yes, near triple double) as well. Moses had 13 points only with 15 boards


Game 2:

http://news.google.c...5,2359187&hl=en

Rockets win it. Moses had 31/15 in this game, and pretty much closed the Celtics in the fourth with being active everywhere. He scored 7 points, blocked two steals, grabbed few boards and had a steal all late to lead his Rockets.


Game 3:

No available article, but in the next article.. Bird was held to 8 points, Moses had 23 points in this and the Celtics D is being praised here.


Game 4:

http://news.google.c...es+malone&hl=en

Rockets tie the series, with Moses 24 points, 21 boards and another guy's huge 28 points.



Game 5:

http://news.google.c...8,6527553&hl=en

Moses records 20/15, but Cornbread Maxwell leads the way for the Celtics with his 28/15. Bird still couldn't break slump with his shooting as he finished 5-15 from field as he finished with 12 points. He recorded 12 boards and eight assists in the game tough.



Game 6:

I can't find an article here, but Bird has 27 points to close it out and Moses finishes with 23. Celtics take the title, FMVP goes to Cornbread even though Bird had 15/15/7 in the series.

So basically Moses' strong play was the main reason why the Rockets won the West and got to the Finals. He outplayed (arguably) Kareem on his way and Larry later on. He didn't win, but i have to give the credit here.

1982
1. Moses
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Bird
5. Gervin

My surprising pick here is Dr J at #1. He had an outstanding RS, played just as good in the postseason and was terrific in the Finals. However, his Philly just didn't have the answer at C for Kareem which is why they lost in all of their match ups expect 83.

#2 is Kareem here

#3 Magic (very close between the two, but i feel that Kareem did more and has a better overall case)

#4 Moses

#5 Bird

1983
1. Moses
2. Magic
3. Doctor J
4. Kareem
5. Moncrief

This is definitely Moses' year again. Just outstanding season, one of the top peak performances ever. I agree with #2 in Magic, who has a pretty decent case as well.

Instead of the Doctor, i'd put Gervin here. He had one of his most brilliant seasons in his illustrated career and led the Spurs to the WCF with his great scoring ability. He finally had a good big man in Gilmore to support him but it wasn't enough to stop Magic and LA.

Still, he was amazing. For the rest i agree with Kareem and Moncrief. I feel that Moncrief, although not as popular as the guys mentioned, was great in this season.

1984
1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. King
5. Isiah

Bird tops anyone this season. The rest are pretty spot on.

1985
1. Bird
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Isiah
5. Moses

Agreed.

1986
1. Bird
2. Hakeem
3. Magic
4. Nique
5. McHale

Can't argue that . This may be arguably the greatest peak of all time. It has a pretty great case. I'm not sure about the #5, but overall it's OK.

1987
1. Magic
2. Bird
3. Jordan
4. Hakeem
5. McHale

Magic was so dominant here. Another of those seasons with great case for the greatest peak season ever. List is fine.

1988
1. Magic
2. Jordan
3. Bird
4. Hakeem
5. Isiah

Spot on here again. Maybe Dominique deserves to be mentioned over Isiah at #5, because of him forcing the Celtics to 7 games with those historical performances.. but i can't say Isiah didn't have any historical moments either.

So, it's understandable. List is great again.

1989
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Hakeem
4. Barkley
5. Isiah

Magic at #1 for me. Won the MVP, outplayed Kevin Johnson in head to head playoff series, elevated himself in the PS, made others better and had huge improvements in his games. Had he been healthy, LA would have most likely beat the Pistons.

Jordan is #2. Rest is spot on.

1990 (changed)
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Ewing
5. Isiah

This is a tough season for me. Literally, the four guys you have on the list all have equally strong cases for the No.1 spot. They all do. I'll give the nod to Magic again, though i might be wrong. I'd put the Glide at #5 in this year for obvious reasons.

Though this could be Charles' year as well because i think he was robbed of A MVP. He didn't have another All-Star, but he carried Philly to the second best record in the East and was amazing in the postseason.

1991
1. Jordan
2. Magic
3. Barkley
4. Robinson
5. Malone

Agreed.

1992 (changed)
1. Jordan
2. Drexler
3. Malone
4. Ewing
5. Robinson

Glad to see Drexler getting the love here.

1993
1. Jordan
2. Barkley
3. Hakeem
4. Ewing
5. Robinson

Seems OK overall.

1994
1. Hakeem
2. Ewing
3. Robinson
4. Pippen
5. Shaq

Again

1995
1. Hakeem
2. Robinson
3. Shaq
4. Malone
5. Barkley

Only Shaq at #2 and Robinson at #3.

1996
1. Jordan
2. Pippen
3. Payton
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

Call me crazy but i think Payton had the best season here. I know it just doesn't seem right, but he accomplished a historical feat, had a great overall season, played greatly in all the levels and was excellent with his defense on Jordan in the last 2 games of the '96 Finals.

Penny should also get mentioned here. The Magic increased their winning record with Shaq out to 15-1 thanks to him. Also, the Worm was pretty damn good in the Finals, as some even called him Finals MVP.

1997
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Hakeem
4. Shaq
5. Mourning

Moving on..

1998 (changed)
1. Jordan
2. Malone
3. Shaq
4. Duncan
5. Miller

Jordan at #1 seems correct. I'd put O'Neal at #2. IMO, he also has a great case for the honor here. Rest is good.

1999
1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Malone
4. Mourning
5. Kidd

Good list

[PTB Fan]

Glad I could help, interestingly, some of my top 4s and tops 5 were identical despite initially just posting my best player lists.

I do also think that Jordan was easily the most significant player of 1998, but I would like to defend Shaq's '98 WCF. He had a much worse series in '97 when he wasn't swept, but I thought he played very well in '98, and most at the time were saying so as well.

Sports Illustrated article about game 4.



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...akers_archive/

From an article after the series.



LA Times article about game 3



http://articles.latimes.com/1998/may/23/sports/sp-52813

That was after a game that Shaq had 39 points and 15 rebounds in, and two other Lakers scored in double figures, Eddie Jones at 16 points on 6/19 shooting and Nick Van Exel on 10 points on 2/13 shooting.

Outside of Shaq, the Lakers offensive players were terrible in the series. Shaq averaged 32 ppg on 56% shooting, while his second option Jones averaged 15 on 41%, Van Exel averaged 9 on 24%, Kobe averaged 10 on 37%, Fox averaged 9.8 on 41%, Fisher averaged 5.5 on 35% and Horry averaged 4.5 on 36%. I don't think anyone could win with that type of support.

I think Shaq does have a case over Malone in '98 for being a more significant player.

As NugzHeat mentioned, George Karl and Bob Weiss were calling Shaq the best post player of all time after his dominant series vs Seattle. He scored at will, while getting double teamed, made great passes out of doubles to set up his teammates and was protecting the paint with a bunch of blocked shots. It was one of his finest all around series. He averaged 31/10/4/4 on 63% shooting in the series.

I think that respected people in the game speaking that highly of Shaq's level of play was more than I've ever heard people say about Malone. But you could argue that Malone being in the finals, beating Shaq's Lakers and having a legitimate case for MVP makes him the right choice for 2nd.

Great post.

I feel that O'Neal will not get the love here because of Michael's MVP and his last championship dominance. Play wise, they're really close with O'Neal being arguably better but it's the accomplishments that will in the end make others vote for #23.

It's surprising how the Lakers managed to do well with all the other guys in the team playing below their normal games. Props to Shaq for his excellence here.

[magnax1]

Though I disagree on some level with a lot of those, I'll just address one for now that I don't understand the logic behind at all.
In 88, Jordan was clearly the best player in the league, and not really by a small margin. Winner of DPOTY, MVP, and then upset the Cavs in the first round by completely carrying his team with an average of 45-5-5 in the series, with fantastic defense on top of it. I don't really know what to say about Magic because I just don't know what you think makes him deserving. He was probably the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league, but his defense was atrocious at that point, and he played in series where he was clearly not the most impactful player between the two teams. Whatever sort of criteria you use, I just don't see what Magic did that could put him over Jordan.
I don't see Isiah's case over Barkley either, or quite a few players really. Though I'm guessing you didn't add Barkley because his team didn't win much.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Great post.

I feel that O'Neal will not get the love here because of Michael's MVP and his last championship dominance. Play wise, they're really close with O'Neal being arguably better but it's the accomplishments that will in the end make others vote for #23.

It's surprising how the Lakers managed to do well with all the other guys in the team playing below their normal games. Props to Shaq for his excellence here.

Well, they didn't do well when his cast wasn't doing anything, that was the problem in the Utah series, but you can see Van Exel saying that they pretty much relied on Shaq getting doubled like in the Seattle series for them to produce, and Utah played him mostly in single coverage eliminated the shots he could set up for teammates.

But I give Shaq credit for not just conceding game 4 down 3-0 in the series after a really tough game 3 loss, it's gotta be tough when you're headed back home and give 39/15 in a desperation attempt to save the series and you get absolutely no support. A lot of players would fold in game 4 rather than score 19 in the 4th.

So while I do think Shaq's leadership was questionable before Phil got there and even after to some extent(in '03 and '04), I have to give him credit for giving his all even when it was pretty much hopeless, while teammates like Van Exel had the nerve to talk about vacation plans in the huddle during an elimination game in a series that he shot 24% in. That's how the most talented team fails to win a title, with attitudes like that.

Though I disagree on some level with a lot of those, I'll just address one for now that I don't understand the logic behind at all.
In 88, Jordan was clearly the best player in the league, and not really by a small margin. Winner of DPOTY, MVP, and then upset the Cavs in the first round by completely carrying his team with an average of 45-5-5 in the series, with fantastic defense on top of it. I don't really know what to say about Magic because I just don't know what you think makes him deserving. He was probably the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league, but his defense was atrocious at that point, and he played in series where he was clearly not the most impactful player between the two teams. Whatever sort of criteria you use, I just don't see what Magic did that could put him over Jordan.
I don't see Isiah's case over Barkley either, or quite a few players really. Though I'm guessing you didn't add Barkley because his team didn't win much.

Well, as he explained, he's not simply doing best player rankings.

I disagree that Jordan was clearly the best by '88. Bird was arguably better, and had a great case for MVP. Jordan was arguably not even in his true prime yet. The only reason I'm hesitant to choose Bird is the 35% vs Detroit, and he really seemed to get worn down with all of the deep playoff runs and absolutely no bench by '88, and we saw that in part of the Atlanta series and especially the Detroit series when Bird said his slump started with fatigue and then the slump got into his head.

I'm not going to excuse a 35% series, I've criticized Lebron for them in '07 and '08 when he wasn't near the player '88 Bird was, but I have to say that Bird did other things in the series. He took a few more uncharacteristic shots than usual, but passed extremely well as usual, rebounded extremely well and had a very good defensive series, both help defense and individual defense on Dantley. Overall numbers were 19.8 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 6.2 apg, 2.7 spg, 1.8 bpg. But if he shoots respectably, Boston has a legitimate chance to beat Detroit.

Magic's '88 season was the worst of his true prime('87-'90), but I think he has to be in the conversation for best player with Bird and Jordan. Jordan's DPOY is also questionable to say the least, I'm a big Jordan fan, but he was not nearly as fundamentally sound as '90-'93 defensively.

[magnax1]

Well, as he explained, he's not simply doing best player rankings.

I know that, but I just don't understand what the case is that Magic was a more important (though I'm not exactly sure what that's supposed to mean) player then Jordan in 88.

I disagree that Jordan was clearly the best by '88. Bird was arguably better, and had a great case for MVP.

I don't really see what Bird's case for MVP is. He was the second best player in the league to me probably, but his team won 7 more games then jordan, and with a pretty massive gap in their teams talents. Boston wasn't the most talented team in the league or anything, but McHale was probably the best post scorer in the league, Parish was still very good, and then Ainge and DJ were both average at least.

Jordan was arguably not even in his true prime yet.

I don't agree with that. I'd say 88 was his third best season.

Magic's '88 season was the worst of his true prime('87-'90), but I think he has to be in the conversation for best player with Bird and Jordan.

I just don't see what either Bird or Magic's argument is. They won more because they had clearly more talented teams. I just can't see Magic or Bird replacing what Jordan did vs the Cavs, but I can easily see Jordan replacing either Magic or Bird considering what he did a few years later as basically the same player with much less talented teams then either of those two.

Jordan's DPOY is also questionable to say the least, I'm a big Jordan fan, but he was not nearly as fundamentally sound as '90-'93 defensively.

That's very true, but he was still probably the best defender at his position while Magic was one of the worst, if not just the worst defender at his position that got big minutes. To me the only things you can really say about Bird and Magic is that they won about 10 more games with a huge talent gap. They didn't have a more impressive playoffs, and they won less awards which always seems to be big with GOAT's criteria.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I know that, but I just don't understand what the case is that Magic was a more important (though I'm not exactly sure what that's supposed to mean) player then Jordan in 88

I think it's the championship, it's always very significant for a player to win a title in a role where they're the clear best player. Led a team to back to back titles for the first time since the Celtics in '69 too.

I don't really see what Bird's case for MVP is. He was the second best player in the league to me probably, but his team won 7 more games then jordan, and with a pretty massive gap in their teams talents. Boston wasn't the most talented team in the league or anything, but McHale was probably the best post scorer in the league, Parish was still very good, and then Ainge and DJ were both average at least.

Well, the 7 win difference is deceptive. The Celtics rested Bird for the final 2 games of the season, they lost both, and one of those was a 7 point loss to Chicago on the last day of the season, and it wasn't just Bird who sat out, it was McHale, and both DJ and Parish played just 7 minutes. Meanwhile, Jordan played 44 minutes and put up 44/6/6.

So if they cared, Boston probably wins 59, and that would probably put Chicago at 49.

Don't forget that McHale was out early, and the Celtics were 10-3 with Bird and without McHale, and 9-2 excluding Bird's 2 limited minute games in that stretch due to injuries. Bird's numbers excluding the limited minute games without McHale were 31.6, 11.4 rpg, 6.6 apg on 50.6 FG% and 59.6 TS%.

Stepping up like that without McHale helps his case for MVP.

I'm not opposed to Jordan winning either. I think he was a solid choice, but the extra wins don't hurt, even if he clearly had a better team despite the lack of a bench and McHale being out.

I don't agree with that. I'd say 88 was his third best season.

Really? I'd definitely take '90-'92 as the top 3, followed by '93, then probably '89. Perhaps even '96 and '97 after that. I think he was a smarter, more polished player who played more unselfishly then, he didn't have the same athleticism, but he was stronger and more skilled than '88.

Either way, to me, '88 wouldn't even make Jordan's top 5. '90-'92 are the clear top 3 as far as I'm concerned since they were his best mixes of skills, athleticism, defense and team play. '93 was just slightly behind, but has most of the qualities of '90-'92. And then '89, which saw him improve on his game compared to '88, imo, but it did have some negatives such as looking for triple doubles and the decline in wins despite a better cast on paper than '88.

I just don't see what either Bird or Magic's argument is. They won more because they had clearly more talented teams. I just can't see Magic or Bird replacing what Jordan did vs the Cavs, but I can easily see Jordan replacing either Magic or Bird considering what he did a few years later as basically the same player with much less talented teams then either of those two.

I don't think Jordan was basically the same player in '88 as he was in '90 or '91. I guess we'll agree to disagree on this. I respect your opinions, but we often just see things differently.

But I'm also not sure if Jordan could do what Bird and Magic did on their teams. Was Jordan as good of a fit with more talent at that point? I'm not sure.

And I'm not sure what could really be improved on with the '88 Celtics. Look at the difference in record and offensive rating between '88 and '89 when Bird pretty much didn't play.

They went from a 57-25 team with a 115.4 offensive rating(best in the league) to a 42-40 team with a 110.8 offensive rating(8th best) despite McHale playing 14 more games and Reggie Lewis going from a guy who basically didn't play in '88 to a productive starter and they had a little more depth in '89.

If Bird misses the '88 season, I think they fail to finish .500.

That's very true, but he was still probably the best defender at his position while Magic was one of the worst, if not just the worst defender at his position that got big minutes. To me the only things you can really say about Bird and Magic is that they won about 10 more games with a huge talent gap. They didn't have a more impressive playoffs, and they won less awards which always seems to be big with GOAT's criteria.

It's difficult to compare, they were all in different situations. Magic was easily in the best, but ended up with the title.

[G.O.A.T]

RE 1988:

It's as simply as this. Magic had learned how to win even when he didn't play his best, Jordan hadn't learned how to win even when he did play his best.

Furthermore in the playoffs Magic consistently played his best when it mattered most and Jordan did not at all.

The Lakers were worn out. Their core had been together since the 1984 season and the franchise had made the finals in five of the last six seasons. In the playoffs a hungry and improving Western Conference gave them all they coould handle and Magic always had an answer.

In the second round the Jazz pushed LA to seven games. In game seven Magic shot 9 of 15 from the field made 5 of 6 free throws scored 23 had 9 rebounds and 16 assists.

In the conference finals the Mavericks too forced LA to play the full seven games. In that series finale Magic again was 9 of 15 from the field, went 6 for 6 from the line, scored 24 points had 9 rebounds and 11 assists.

In the NBA finals the Lakers were down three games to two to the Pistons and Magic turned in the following games...

game 6: 22 points 4 rebounds 19 assists 5-12 fg, 12-13 fts
game 7: 19 points 5 rebounds 15 assists 6-9 fg, 7-8 fts

In four games with his team facing elimination Magic Johnson averaged 22 points, 7 rebounds, 15 assists, shot 58% from the field and 90% from the line.

That's what the best player in the league does and that's why the Lakers won their second straight title.

Jordan on the other hand got a lesson in the Jordan Rules from the Bad Boys.

After a strong game two (36 points) which allowed Chicago to steal a game from the Pistons, Detroit put the clamps on MJ holding him to 45% shooting and to 24, 23 and 25 points in the next three games as the Pistons won easily in all three and advanced.

That's the difference. Magic elevated his play and Jordan saw all his numbers go down and his scoring go down by over 25%.

[magnax1]

I think it's the championship, it's always very significant for a player to win a title in a role where they're the clear best player. Led a team to back to back titles for the first time since the Celtics in '69 too.

Maybe. I have trouble understanding what the purpose of ranking players in terms of "importance" is anyway.

Well, the 7 win difference is deceptive. The Celtics rested Bird for the final 2 games of the season, they lost both, and one of those was a 7 point loss to Chicago on the last day of the season, and it wasn't just Bird who sat out, it was McHale, and both DJ and Parish played just 7 minutes. Meanwhile, Jordan played 44 minutes and put up 44/6/6.

Even with a couple more wins, it really doesn't matter. No one else was going to bring that team to 50 wins, or probably even get more then 40.

Really? I'd definitely take '90-'92 as the top 3, followed by '93, then probably '89. Perhaps even '96 and '97 after that. I think he was a smarter, more polished player who played more unselfishly then, he didn't have the same athleticism, but he was stronger and more skilled than '88.

I'd rank his seasons 89, 90, then 91/88. Yeah, he was more skilled later, but I don't think he was a whole lot smarter offensively, and his only two improvements that made a big difference to me are his jumpshot becoming more consistent, and him gambling a lot less on Defense. However on the other end I can't see him scoring 35 ppg for an entire season, or 45 ppg for an entire series with the kind of team mates he had in his 88 year by 91. Stamina degrades quickly after the early/mid 20s, and that age gap makes a big difference. The closest modern equivalent to me is that while I'd take this year's Lebron over any other version, he's been quite clearly tired by a lot of fourth quarters these past 2 years, and I couldnt see him drop 20 straight like in 07, or average 40 ppg over an entire series like in 09.
Also, I think you'd see 88 Jordan play a lot more within the offense and smarter like Jordan in 90 or 91 if he had the same team mates. His team in 88 just didn't really allow it.
Either way, Jordan from 88-93 is better then any other player I've seen a large amount of footage of, so it's just nitpicking really. He still had what I'd consider his greatest series in 93 against the Suns, so he didn't really have a large degradation until his second threepeat.

But I'm also not sure if Jordan could do what Bird and Magic did on their teams. Was Jordan as good of a fit with more talent at that point? I'm not sure.

I don't see why not? His team mates might suffer some since he might have some trouble gelling with a post player, but I think he'd more then make it up with his own production.

And I'm not sure what could really be improved on with the '88 Celtics. Look at the difference in record and offensive rating between '88 and '89 when Bird pretty much didn't play.
They went from a 57-25 team with a 115.4 offensive rating(best in the league) to a 42-40 team with a 110.8 offensive rating(8th best) despite McHale playing 14 more games and Reggie Lewis going from a guy who basically didn't play in '88 to a productive starter and they had a little more depth in '89.

Bird's the second best perimeter player ever to me and I don't think there is any perimeter player ever that could replace him and get better results then Jordan, but I still think there is a clear gap between the two.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Even with a couple more wins, it really doesn't matter. No one else was going to bring that team to 50 wins, or probably even get more then 40.

Difficult to say, but a lot of it comes down to what you value more, carrying a bad team, or elevating an already talented team. I agree that Jordan would be better at carrying a bad team, but in this case, I'd rather have a guy who will fit better on a talented team because you need that to accomplish the ultimate goal. This isn't to say that I don't think Jordan could win a title, but do I think he's better on a talented team at that stage of his career than

I'd rank his seasons 89, 90, then 91/88. Yeah, he was more skilled later, but I don't think he was a whole lot smarter offensively, and his only two improvements that made a big difference to me are his jumpshot becoming more consistent, and him gambling a lot less on Defense. However on the other end I can't see him scoring 35 ppg for an entire season, or 45 ppg for an entire series with the kind of team mates he had in his 88 year by 91. Stamina degrades quickly after the early/mid 20s, and that age gap makes a big difference. The closest modern equivalent to me is that while I'd take this year's Lebron over any other version, he's been quite clearly tired by a lot of fourth quarters these past 2 years, and I couldnt see him drop 20 straight like in 07, or average 40 ppg over an entire series like in 09.
Also, I think you'd see 88 Jordan play a lot more within the offense and smarter like Jordan in 90 or 91 if he had the same team mates. His team in 88 just didn't really allow it.
Either way, Jordan from 88-93 is better then any other player I've seen a large amount of footage of, so it's just nitpicking really. He still had what I'd consider his greatest series in 93 against the Suns, so he didn't really have a large degradation until his second threepeat.

Well, Jordan averaged 34(well 33.6) in 1990 while playing off the ball more, having to learn a new offense and fit into it much more with better teammates than '88, so there's no doubt in my mind he could make up the extra 1.4 ppg in his '88 situation, if not more.

In the ECSF vs Philly, he averaged 43 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 7.4 apg, 4 spg, 1.2 bpg on 55/39/85 shooting %, so he was obviously still capable of the 45 ppg type series.

Really? '89 Jordan over '90. '90 Jordan didn't have quite as many assists(6.3 vs 8.0) or assists(8.0 vs 6.9), but he scored more(33.6 vs 32.5), and the assists can be explained by him playing in the triangle vs playing PG the last 24 games, and also by not actively pursuing triple doubles as well as Pippen improving a good deal and handling the ball more than in the past, he wasn't quite in his point forward role he'd grow into soon, but averaging 5+ apg.

He added the 3 point shot, and had one of the better 3 point shooting seasons in the league in '90(9th in attempts, 12th in made 3s, and just outside the top 20 in %), while having an even better mid-range shot. His defense also improved, and he was just playing in a style that was easier to win with, though he did carry his team to remarkable success considering his teammates and his opponents in the '89 season.

I lean towards '90 Jordan as the best version, I liked that he had the 3 point shot that year, but didn't rely on it, and did almost everything as good as he ever would with slight exceptions while having pretty much his peak athleticism. He was insanely quick that year, and could elevate in an instant while being wiry strong.

'91 Jordan is virtually the same player as '90 to me. The differences are, he had his minutes limited more so he looked for his shot a bit more early in games, he was a bit stronger, but perhaps not quite as quick, he didn't shoot 3s, and he won a title, while not having to carry the team quite as much. Though that last part goes hand in hand, and is due to them facing a worse Detroit team than '90 as well as Pippen's significant improvement and responsibilities at both ends, Grant improving a bit and the team becoming more comfortable in the triangle.

I don't see why not? His team mates might suffer some since he might have some trouble gelling with a post player, but I think he'd more then make it up with his own production.

It's tough to say since he didn't have the opportunity, it's also speculation really. All we have to go by is what they did that year, and that doesn't fully answer this particular question.

Bird's the second best perimeter player ever to me and I don't think there is any perimeter player ever that could replace him and get better results then Jordan, but I still think there is a clear gap between the two.

I agree in general, those are the 2 best perimeter players, imo as well, and I do think Jordan has a clear edge in the early 90's, but I just don't think the gap between any 80's version of Jordan and Bird is significant either way. But we have disagreements on Jordan's best years so that's the root of our disagreement on that.

'88 Jordan and Bird to me are very close. Too close for me to rank them definitively at this point.

[G.O.A.T]

Thanks for the feedback PTB fan...

I've made some more changes to a number of years, really enjoying the research with this project.

[eliteballer]

Hill not top 5 in any year from 95-99??