A challenge for Loki

[elementally morale]

Eric, I dont think you could really blame laker fans for saying hes equal or better than jordan at 22...if my memory serves correct...the media was thriving for the next jordan and kobe's style of play heavily promoted that. I remember magazines with "jordan wasnt this good at 19"...and all that. Kobe from the moment he stepped foot on the basketball court...the media, and alot of fans instantly wanted to crown him the next jordan...and IMO, kobe bought into the hype a little...everyone knew he was gonna be big and everyone wanted to relive the jordan era

Kobe surely bought into his own hype back then, but how can you blame him? He was 20 and change and already a multimilionaire regularly aired on national TV, several championships, magazine covers and so on. I think it took him a few years to realize how good he really is, and I honestly don't think he ranks gimslef higher all-time than Loki ranks him (top 25). I wouldn't even go that far, not at this point at least.

[Loki]

How do you know what he thinks? You hate what you think he thinks of himself, right? Also, I have to think Kobe is playing better this year than last.

Statements he's made. Statements made by others who are close to him (Phil, Tex etc.). How he comes off in interviews and on the court. It doesn't take a genius.

[elementally morale]

Statements he's made.

Please tell me more.

Statements made by others who are close to him (Phil, Tex etc.). How he comes off in interviews and on the court.

Statements others made are not reflecting what he thinks of himself but what others thought of him, unless the staments are about what he told them he thinks of himself. Also, people do change over time and I think Bryant has changed quite a bit. Anyway, what kind of statements were you thinking of?

It doesn't take a genius.

It sure doesn't, that's why I'm asking you instead of asking a genius.

[Loki]

[QUOTE=Tex Winter]

[Loki]

It sure doesn't, that's why I'm asking you instead of asking a genius.

Touche, Salto.


We're never going to agree about how despicable/benign Kobe is, so I'll drop it.

[elementally morale]

[QUOTE]"

[elementally morale]

We're never going to agree about how despicable/benign Kobe is, so I'll drop it.

I agree with you on more things than I don't agree on - even regarding Bryant. I'm just not sure it does you much good focusing on him all the time. I really really disliked (and still dislike) Jordan. I adore him but I don't like him one bit. He is an azz in my eyes. So what? You rarely see me discussing this.

Jordan didn't entertain me the same way Kobe does and it has more to do with the fact that Kobe's faults entertain me (which is true) than with the fact that Jordan's greatness didn' touch me (which is not true). I think Isiah Thomas is an even greater azzhole than Jordan - but Thomas also entertained me a lot more.

Anyway, it happens. Some people we don't like. But why are you spending so much time on a topic that gives you goose bumps? That I can't understand.

[bence23]

I don't think you can blame any 20-year-old that wants to be the best of all time at anything. Some will admit it others won't - but at one time in our lives we all wanted to be the best at something. Not the best 'we could be', but the ultimate best. Most people outgrow this and later even realize that there is no such thing as 'best'. There are certain points of views and certain considerations but there is no ultimate best.



That I agree with. But Tex Winter was what, 75 when he said this? And Kobe was what? 20? 21? 22? C'mon. Kobe will grow up. The one guy who will never grow up is Shaq - and I love him this way. Shaq doesn't have to grow up he is great the way he is. Growing up is not obligatory - but for a guy with Kobe's personality it's better growing up than not growing up. Eventually, he will.

And out of the three guys it is Phil Jackson that stinks the most. He sure grew up... and what a spoiled asssshole has he become. (And of course that takes away nothing of his coaching greatness.)

keep posting im dying

[lovethetriangle]

He's motivated by the desire to be the best ever -- another thing that irks me. Not motivated by a desire to be the best that HE can be (and if that turns out to be the GOAT, so be it), but rather by a desire to be the best that's ever played. I've never seen a Laker/Kobe fan who can tell the difference between these two trains of thought, and how that would play out on the court and in life, but the difference seems plain to me (and, I would assume, to many others).

What's wrong in being motivated by the desire to be the best ever? Give me one good reason why that is wrong. There are people that are uber-competitive and there are those that aren't. Apparently your not and there's nothing wrong. I'm a competitive tennis player and it is my dream to be the best player that my school/district/country has ever seen. I want to be the best poster on ISH. Why is this wrong? How is this a turn off?

I admit that i'd rather fail a test and be higher than everyone else in my class over getting a perfect score along with 20 other people. That's my nature. I want to win. Do you have a problem with that? The entire Political/Economic history of the United States is arguably based on the International Relation concept of Realism. Realism represents Self-help, Self-interest, and Statecraft. They are on the top and everyone else complains about them. You have a problem with them as well?

These are your personal opinions. How then can you hate on groupies/homers when you have your own personal biases? Your point here displays exactly why your views are purely subjective and not, in any way, and will ever will be, dogma. Therefore, you have no grounds for mocking kobe/laker fans. If he scores 62 points in three quarters, your going to say he had zero assists. You define viscious cycles. But then again, its guys like you that keep forums going.

[elementally morale]

What's wrong in being motivated by the desire to be the best ever? Give me one good reason why that is wrong. There are people that are uber-competitive and there are those that aren't.

I've got a few things to say here.

1) I'm pretty sure Jordan also wanted to be the best of the best, and so did Larry Bird. Even if you 'only' want to win a championship in the NBA you have to want being the best of the very best - as a team or individual. That's the way it goes.

2) There is no certainty. Even if you want it nothing will guarantee you will succeed. Others want the very same thing and you might just get beaten. But the less you want it the bigger the chance that you'll be defeated. It's okay not winning it or not becoming the best as a professional. But not even trying it...that's Darius Miles.

3) We all wanted to become the best at something when we were young. The very best. The ultimate winner. Even so if none of us posting on this board is as talented in anything as Kobe Bryant is in basketball. And I bet none of us has put nearly as much work into anything as he has put into basketball. And we still wanted to be the best. What makes it strange that he who is so good at something and he who was told during his teen years how much potential he has and how great he is believed that he could become the best? As far as I know he never said he was the best. All he (is reported to have) said was he wanted to become the best. Yes, floks. He is one of us. A human being. Big deal.

4) The best simply doesn't exist. To me, my mother is the best of all. But I'm pretty sure some of you wouldn't like her. And I'd be a fool if I wanted you to. And you are also fools if you want to explain me why I shouldn't like her. Two mothers can be the very best at the very same time. And at the same time there is no such thing as best in this category. This applies as well to your favorite book, movie, music, girlfreind, wife, friend and basketball player.

Once upon a time Muhammad Ali was knocked the sh!t out...

[lovethetriangle]

I've got a few things to say here.

1) I'm pretty sure Jordan also wanted to be the best of the best, and so did Larry Bird. Even if you 'only' want to win a championship in the NBA you have to want being the best of the very best - as a team or individual. That's the way it goes.

2) There is no certainty. Even if you want it nothing will guarantee you will succeed. Others want the very same thing and you might just get beaten. But the less you want it the bigger the chance that you'll be defeated. It's okay not winning it or not becoming the best as a professional. But not even trying it...that's Darius Miles.

3) We all wanted to become the best at something when we were young. The very best. The ultimate winner. Even so if none of us posting on this board is as talented in anything as Kobe Bryant is in basketball. And I bet none of us has put nearly as much work into anything as he has put into basketball. And we still wanted to be the best. What makes it strange that he who is so good at something and he who was told during his teen years how much potential he has and how great he is believed that he could become the best? As far as I know he never said he was the best. All he (is reported to have) said was he wanted to become the best. Yes, floks. He is one of us. A human being. Big deal.

4) The best simply doesn't exist. To me, my mother is the best of all. But I'm pretty sure some of you wouldn't like her. And I'd be a fool if I wanted you to. And you are also fools if you want to explain me why I shouldn't like her. Two mothers can be the very best at the very same time. And at the same time there is no such thing as best in this category. This applies as well to your favorite book, movie, music, girlfreind, wife, friend and basketball player.

Once upon a time Muhammad Ali was knocked the sh!t out...

I absolutely concur.

[DreamRockets]

those players aren't unappealling men who ran hall of famers out of town, cheat on their wifes, hand another team an nba championship by shooting like antoine walker and quit on their team on a game 7 of the playoffs, kobe deserves every ounce of hates he gets, those other players don't.

[Loki]

What's wrong in being motivated by the desire to be the best ever? Give me one good reason why that is wrong. There are people that are uber-competitive and there are those that aren't. Apparently your not and there's nothing wrong. I'm a competitive tennis player and it is my dream to be the best player that my school/district/country has ever seen. I want to be the best poster on ISH. Why is this wrong? How is this a turn off?

Because it assumes that you have the talent to be so, for one. If my quadriplegic, 90-year old aunt wants to be the best badminton player who ever lived, do you not see why that's a foolish desire? Moreover, wanting to be "the best ever" as opposed to "the best you can be" will affect how you pursue your goals, since in the former case you're chasing an external standard, which can cause you -- consciously or otherwise -- to attempt to conform your game to the standards/style set by another player rather than playing to your particular, unique strengths.

"The best ever" is for others to decide, not oneself. Just do your best, to the best of your abilities, and if others recognize you as the GOAT, then fine. But to take the above course of action is incorrect and counterproductive imo. It certainly doesn't endear him to me (I'm sure he's torn up about it, too :)).

The entire Political/Economic history of the United States is arguably based on the International Relation concept of Realism. Realism represents Self-help, Self-interest, and Statecraft. They are on the top and everyone else complains about them. You have a problem with them as well?

Now that you mention it, I do have many problems with US policy, both economic and political. But that's not germane to this discussion.

These are your personal opinions. How then can you hate on groupies/homers when you have your own personal biases? Your point here displays exactly why your views are purely subjective and not, in any way, and will ever will be, dogma.

Yeah, because Kobe fans are really objective when they start talking about how he's "as good as Jordan," or "better than Jordan" and only have recourse to subjective things like their appraisal of his "skills" (since Kobe's numbers and accomplishments are far off from Jordan's).

At least I've never tried to pass my opinion off as fact, unlike Kobe groupies.

Therefore, you have no grounds for mocking kobe/laker fans. If he scores 62 points in three quarters, your going to say he had zero assists.

Actually, I've never done that, no.

[DreamRockets]

how many assists he had that game ? :)

[Devientz]

Loki,
I agree with you that the roleplayers were hot last night. No, Kobe did not facilitate the whole game, but the only player you could argue does that is Nash. But saying it was a "lucky" win is not correct. The Lakers play (at home at least) to the level of their competition. If you notice, the Lakers hardly ever blow out their oppenents, they just play slightly above them. This has happened all season long. And everytime almost, its the "scrubs" that do it. Kobe has had 3 50+ games, but besides those, this season he has not taken over all the scoring. The roleplayers stepped up in almost every game that they were needed to and they win against the best teams in the league so to say it was lucky is bull****. The heat were hot last night, the Lakers stepped it up and won.
btw i didnt read any of the posts in here so sorry if what i said coulda been said before