Who is your top 5 biggest chokers among the All-Time Greats?

[Asukal]

Ok, Wilt played in 29 post-season series. Give me YOUR list of the series in which he "choked" (and by definition, the one's you leave off would be considered "clutch" then, right?) Oh, and I want you to also give me the numbers that his opposing centers put up in those "choking" series, as well.

Nothing changes history old man. Your boy Wilt couldn't get it done while being bigger, stronger, more dominant than any of his peers during his day. It's actually laughable he only won 2 while being matched up against a guy 4 inches shorter.

[LAZERUSS]

Nothing changes history old man. Your boy Wilt couldn't get it done while being bigger, stronger, more dominant than any of his peers during his day. It's actually laughable he only won 2 while being matched up against a guy 4 inches shorter.

You mean his badly overmatched TEAMMATES right?

How many titles did Jordan win in his 15 year career? Did he choke in NINE of them?

Bird? Did he choke in TEN of his post-seasons?
West in 12?
Kobe in 12?
Duncan in 13?
KAJ in 14?
Shaq in 15?
Hakeem in 16?

[Asukal]

You mean his badly overmatched TEAMMATES right?

How many titles did Jordan win in his 15 year career? Did he choke in NINE of them?

Bird? Did he choke in TEN of his post-seasons?
West in 12?
Kobe in 12?
Duncan in 13?
KAJ in 14?
Shaq in 15?
Hakeem in 16?

Oh now you use the team mates card? Well it is already well documented Wilt did get quality team mates around him during the 2nd half of his career. Yet still only managed to win 2.

Just think about it, Wilt only won once against Russell, a guy 4 inches shorter. When Russ retired Wilt still couldn't manage to dominate the league.

What's your next excuse?

[LAZERUSS]

If he doesn't match up to his regular season numbers in the post season there's not much argument for him not choking.
I know you love him to death, and after, but please be objective. There's a lot of reasons why he is considered the biggest choker ever and you know them well, it's just that your homerism doesn't let you accept it. All players have flaws, Wilt is still top 10, which is a great achievement

You would be hard-pressed to find a handful of playoff series in which was outplayed by his counter-part, most all of whom are in the HOF. And his regular season "dropoff" is STILL overwhelming.

For instance, Wilt played in 160 post-season games, of which only 52 came in his "scoring" prime. And out of those 52, he faced RUSSELL in 30 of them. In fact, let's go to '67, and his first 67 playoff games, 35 of which came against Russell. Here are the numbers...

30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.4 apg, .515 FG% (in leagues that shot about .420 in that span), with a conservative estimate of 8+ blocks per game.

Now, go ahead and give me your list of GOATs who averaged a 30-27-5-8 .515 (and shooting 10% over the post-season league average) in a single SERIES. Hell, give me the list of GOATs who had ONE GAME with that stat-line.

A prime scoring Wilt had 12 "must-win" games in the post-season, EIGHT of which were against RUSSELL (and his swarming Celtics.) Guess what? Wilt AVERAGED 37.3 ppg, 27.6 rpg, and shot .521 from the field (in post-seasons that shot .417 in that same span.)

In his 23 career post-season "must win" games...

31.1 ppg (OVER his regular season ppg average of 30.1 ppg)
26.4 rpg (OVER his regular season rpg average of 22.9 rpg)
.540 FG% (EQUAL to his regular season FG% of .540.)

But aside from the pure numbers, he was either outplaying, or downright destroying his HOF peers in the vast majority of his post-season series.

And again, give me YOUR list of the playoff series in which Wilt "choked."

[LAZERUSS]

Oh now you use the team mates card? Well it is already well documented Wilt did get quality team mates around him during the 2nd half of his career. Yet still only managed to win 2.

Just think about it, Wilt only won once against Russell, a guy 4 inches shorter. When Russ retired Wilt still couldn't manage to dominate the league.

What's your next excuse?

It is also well documented that Wilt's rosters badly unde-rperformed in the post-season.

How about this?

Wilt had Hall Of Fame teammates on his team every single season of his career. 12/14 seasons he had at least 2 HOF teammates.



Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .431 Gola .412
'61 Arizin .325 Gola .206
'62 Arizin .375 Gola .271
'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out
'64 Thurmond .438
'65 Greer .455 Walker .480
'66 Greer .352 Cunningham .161 Walker .375
'67 Greer .429 Walker .467 Cunningham .376
'68 Greer .432 Walker .410 Cunningham broke wrist in first round (played 3 games)
'69 West .469 Baylor .385
'70 West .469 Baylor .466
'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in playoffs. Goodrich .425
'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .376. Goodrich .445
'73 West .449 Goodrch .448

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. Shoots .397 in playoffs.
'63 Meschery (* All Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .425 FG% during season.)
'63 Rodgers (shoots .387 in regular season.
'64 Rodgers .329 in post-season.
'65 Jackson .338 in playoffs.

And then this...

'60 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .380 from the field. Lose game six of EDF's.

'61 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .332 from the field. Lose in 1st round.

'62 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .354 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'64 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .383 from the field. Lose in game five of Finals.

'65 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .413 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'66 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .352 from the field. Lose in game five of EDF's.

'67 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .428 from the field. Wins Title

'68 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .416 from the field. Lose in game seven of EDF's.

'69 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .421 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'70 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .469 from the field. Lose game seven of Finals.

'71 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of WCF's.

'72 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .414 from the field. Wins Title.

'73 Playoffs. Teammates collectively shoot .446 from the field. Lose game five of Finals.

Of course, Wilt's 68 roster had SEVEN of their EIGHT key players either playing injured, or not playing at all, including Wilt, himself, and they lost a game seven in the '68 EDF's by four points. Of course, just the year before, and with a healthy roster, they annihilated the 60-21 Celtics, 4-1 (and were four points away from a sweep in game four.)

Or Wilt coming back from major knee surgery in four months, and taking an under-dog Laker team to a game seven of the '70 Finals against the HOF-laden and 60-22 Knicks (in a series in which Wilt averaged 23-24 .625.)

Or Wilt taking his 48-34 Lakers, withOUT BOTH West and Baylor, up against the 66-16 Bucks in '71.

Or Wilt leading his '72 Lakers past that same Bucks team, and then wiping out the Knicks and their FIVE HOFers in the Finals.

Or Wilt taking his 60-22 Lakers further than KAJ did his 60-22 Bucks in the post-season, and with West just a shell, losing four close games in the Finals against the Knicks and their SIX HOFers.

[Asukal]

It is also well documented that Wilt's rosters badly unde-rperformed in the post-season.

How about this?



And then this...



Of course, Wilt's 68 roster had SEVEN of their EIGHT key players either playing injured, or not playing at all, including Wilt, himself, and they lost a game seven in the '68 EDF's by four points. Of course, just the year before, and with a healthy roster, they annihilated the 60-21 Celtics, 4-1 (and were four points away from a sweep in game four.)

Or Wilt coming back from major knee surgery in four months, and taking an under-dog Laker team to a game seven of the '70 Finals against the HOF-laden and 60-22 Knicks (in a series in which Wilt averaged 23-24 .625.)

Or Wilt taking his 48-34 Lakers, withOUT BOTH West and Baylor, up against the 66-16 Bucks in '71.

Or Wilt leading his '72 Lakers past that same Bucks team, and then wiping out the Knicks and their FIVE HOFers in the Finals.

Or Wilt taking his 60-22 Lakers further than KAJ did his 60-22 Bucks in the post-season, and with West just a shell, losing four close games in the Finals against the Knicks and their SIX HOFers.

In other words, he choked.

[DatAsh]

If he doesn't match up to his regular season numbers in the post season there's not much argument for him not choking.
I know you love him to death, and after, but please be objective. There's a lot of reasons why he is considered the biggest choker ever and you know them well, it's just that your homerism doesn't let you accept it. All players have flaws, Wilt is still top 10, which is a great achievement

Why is performance judged solely on numbers though? Is it possible that Wilt could have been playing a different role in the post season than he was in the regular season?

[deja vu]

Wilt has to be the undisputed #1 choke artist followed by LeBron.

Regular season: 30 ppg
Playoffs: 23 ppg
Finals: 18 ppg

Pathetic.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt's post-season "choke jobs", like his '60 EDF's, or his '62 EDF's, or his '64 Finals, or his '65 EDF's, or his '66 EDF's, or his '70 Finals, or his '71 WCF's...

compare with Baylor's '62 Finals, West's '69 Finals, Thurmond's '72 playoff series against KAJ, KAJ's '74 Finals, McAdoo's '75 series against the 60-22 Bullets, KAJ's '77 WCF's, Dr. J's '77 Finals, Bernard King's '84 series against Boston, MJ's '86 series against Boston (including his 'stats-padding" choke job in game two), and Lebron's '09 ECF's.

What a pathetic cast of playoff "choking" performances...

[Stringer Bell]

Duncan a choker?

Come on now. Everyone has their bad moments in big playoff games, even the holy trio of Jordan/Magic/Bird, but throughout his career Duncan has performed well in the postseason and is far from a choker.