Robinson vs. Ewing

[NugzHeat3]

I'm not sure if Robinson could lead the Knicks.

Patrick Ewing was a mean dude and the Knicks mentality was moulded around him. Pat Riley built that team with the same concept as the Bad Boys built theirs. Knicks, like Ewing, were gritty and weren't afraid to rough you up, knock you down and get physical which are all traits I would never associate with David Robinson. Teams tend to take the identity of its best player so I'd be skeptical of Robinson leading that team.

It wouldn't be the same although I'd still like to see Robinson on the same frontcourt as Mason and Oakley who were probably the most meanest dudes in the league. Definitely a contrast in their personalities so I'd like to see how they would fit. Robinson's personality was one of the reasons Rodman didn't like him since they were polar opposites.

As for the Bulls, I don't see them losing to Robinson. I don't really see Robinson doing much better. He'd be a hard cover for a guy like Cartwright because of his quickness while facing up and in transition but Bulls could get away with sticking Horace Grant on him (and Grant has shut down Robinson before) and double teaming from all angles which Robinson can't deal with which is a stylistic issue. He was shook against the Rockets double teaming of guys like Horry and Drexler, he'd be toast against Pippen and Jordan and consider that NYK's spacing was a big issue since they didn't have enough shooters and the paint was clogged more than usual.

Just want to post a Ewing video, since we rarely talk about him. Clutch shots vs Jordan. Kind of lucky in the last one thought http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huqgGxxVy94

But yeah, Ewing just had much more heart. Didn't he use to yell give him the ****ing ball. That is the opposite of Robinson. You never heard one of Ewing's teamates calling soft. Avery Johnson, Dennis Rodman calling Robinson soft, and who knows how many countless others.

Lets not get carried away. Robinson being soft is an issue as well as his body type + lack of a back to basket game which are both related but all that included, I don't see him getting outplayed by Rik Smits like Ewing did in the playoffs in various games and that was a big reason why Indiana beat New York in 1995.

That's why it's easier for me to say peak Ewing was better but Ewing, like Robinson, has a lot of duds in the playoffs.

[Owl]

Just want to post a Ewing video, since we rarely talk about him. Clutch shots vs Jordan. Kind of lucky in the last one thought http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huqgGxxVy94

But yeah, Ewing just had much more heart. Didn't he use to yell give him the ****ing ball. That is the opposite of Robinson. You never heard one of Ewing's teamates calling soft. Avery Johnson, Dennis Rodman calling Robinson soft, and who knows how many countless others.

Didn't hear teammates or anyone calling Ewing MVP either. Or good at stealing the ball. Or DPoY. Or a good (or average) passer. Or the league leader in points, blocks or steals.

How did this magnificent heart manifest itself on the basketball court? Getting beaten by an inferior Pacers team?

Or specifically the manner in which he beasted Rik Smits in '95
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505070NYK.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505090NYK.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505110IND.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505130IND.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505170NYK.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505190IND.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505210NYK.html

BTW is there a source for Avery calling Robinson soft, I couldn't care less what Rodman said, but would be interested in seeing where Avery said that.

[jstern]

Didn't hear teammates or anyone calling Ewing MVP either. Or good at stealing the ball. Or DPoY. Or a good (or average) passer. Or the league leader in points, blocks or steals.

How did this magnificent heart manifest itself on the basketball court? Getting beaten by an inferior Pacers team?

Or specifically the manner in which he beasted Rik Smits in '95
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505070NYK.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505090NYK.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505110IND.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505130IND.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505170NYK.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505190IND.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...505210NYK.html

BTW is there a source for Avery calling Robinson soft, I couldn't care less what Rodman said, but would be interested in seeing where Avery said that.

The source is Dennis Rodman in one his book, perhas Bad as I want to be. He was telling a story about during a playoff game Avery Johnson ripping DR for playing soft. Don't remember if soft was the word used, but might as well be *****, or any other such words.

Hey, I like David Robinson, don't get me wrong, just that it's not as simple as looking at his stats and basing it off that.

[Owl]

The source is Dennis Rodman in one his book, perhas Bad as I want to be. He was telling a story about during a playoff game Avery Johnson ripping DR for playing soft. Don't remember if soft was the word used, but might as well be *****, or any other such words.

Hey, I like David Robinson, don't get me wrong, just that it's not as simple as looking at his stats and basing it off that.

Okay well if it's one game and the source is Rodman, well put it this way I'm not losing any sleep over it. Cheers for the info tho anyway

I don't think stats are the be all and end all but to close or overturn the (statistical) gap between Robinson and Ewing (especially peak wise) I'd have to hear something mighty convincing. Both were great players but to me Robinson was in a different league.

I'm not sure if Robinson could lead the Knicks.

Patrick Ewing was a mean dude and the Knicks mentality was moulded around him. Pat Riley built that team with the same concept as the Bad Boys built theirs. Teams tend to take the identity of its best player. Knicks, like Ewing, were gritty and weren't afraid to rough you up, knock you down and get physical which are all traits I would never associate with David Robinson. Teams tend to take the identity of its best player so I'd be skeptical of Robinson leading that team.

It wouldn't be the same although I'd still like to see Robinson on the same frontcourt as Mason and Oakley who were probably the most meanest dudes in the league. Definitely a contrast in their personalities so I'd like to see how they would fit. Robinson's personality was one of the reasons Rodman didn't like him since they were polar opposites.

As for the Bulls, I don't see them losing to Robinson. I don't really see Robinson doing much better. He'd be a hard cover for a guy like Cartwright because of his quickness while facing up and in transition but Bulls could get away with sticking Horace Grant on him (and Grant has shut down Robinson before) and double teaming from all angles which Robinson can't deal with which is a stylistic issue. He was shook against the Rockets double teaming of guys like Horry and Drexler, he'd be toast against Pippen and Jordan and consider that NYK's spacing was a big issue since they didn't have enough shooters and the paint was clogged more than usual.

Lets not get carried away. Robinson being soft is an issue as well as his body type + lack of a back to basket game which are both related but all that included, I don't see him getting outplayed by Rik Smits like Ewing did in the playoffs in various games and that was a big reason why Indiana beat New York in 1995.

That's why it's easier for me to say peak Ewing was better but Ewing, like Robinson, has a lot of duds in the playoffs.

I don't see why Robinson couldn't lead the Knicks just because he was Christian and didn't scowl (which is the implication behind the "hard vs soft" dichotomy). The Knicks identity was as a hard nosed defensive club and that was from everyone, Riley, Oakley, Mason, Starks, Harper (and before him Cheeks and maybe Rivers), Greg Anthony. Robinson was a DPoY and would be better equipped than Ewing to turn that elite D and rebounding into fast break points.

Looking at the logs it seems Chicago's dobermans did cause some TO problems (as I imagine they did to all go to guys), but Robinson logged some big fg% steal, block and rebound nights versus the Bulls.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...=&order_by=pts

[Rake2204]

If Robinson lacked "heart" whilst leading the league in points, blocks and rebounds and coming top 5 in fg% and top 5 in steals, being the only center other than Shaq and Wilt to post an 30+ PER season, well thank goodness he wasn't really trying.

Word up.

Again, I'm insanely biased because David Robinson is my favorite player of all-time, but that "heart" argument always seemed so flimsy and arbitrary. And the moment one teammate came out and said the same thing (Rodman), people committed it to memory as unwavering fact.

I just don't believe a player can do what Robinson did while not having heart. And like you said, if it was true (that he didn't have heart or will) then by god, I can't imagine what he would have accomplished if he did.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Robinson was more talented, and considerably more gifted as an athlete. Perhaps the most athletic 7 footer I've ever seen and definitely one of the best defensive players of all time.

However, his playoff performances and back to the basket game have always made him very questionable to me. I think he was kind of forced into the role of being the man offensively, when in reality, as good of an all around player as he was, I just don't think scoring 25+ per game in the playoffs was comfortable for him, particularly when there would be less opportunities for him to get easy baskets running the floor and on lobs. That's probably why Robinson's rookie team was his best cast as the man because Terry Cummings was really a focal point of their offense and they had more offensive weapons than his later teams.

He was a better passer than Ewing, but I prefer Ewing's toughness and post game, and also agree that Robinson leading the 90's Knicks doesn't sound like nearly as good of a fit as Ewing.

It gets tougher when looking at their entire primes. I'll take peak Ewing(1990) over peak Robinson and I'll favor prime Ewing over prime Robinson by a small margin simply because Ewing showed me a lot more throughout his playoff career. He had his failures as NugzHeat said, but not as weak as the way Robinson was going down such as '94 vs Utah. Even comparing their head to head series with Hakeem and the Rockets, despite Ewing's horrible shooting, he played Hakeem a lot tougher, imo and did battle him defensively, though he was helped a great deal by Mason and a great defensive team.

I also wouldn't hype up Ewing's point guards. I liked Harper as part of the cast, but Rod Strickland? He barely played on the Knicks and actually didn't show much until he was with the Spurs alongside David Robinson.

Mark Jackson started off well with the Knicks, but by '90 and '91, and he was getting booed at home and benched in favor of an aging Mo Cheeks.

Their casts weren't really that much different to me. Ewing's cast in his peak season was weak compared to the contending teams and considerably weaker than Robinson's cast that same season which included Terry Cummings, Willie Anderson, Rod Strickland and Sean Elliott(rookie).

His '95 cast was pretty good as well with Rodman, Sean Elliott, Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro, Chuck Person and Doc Rivers. Not great, but not bad either, and I wouldn't call Ewing's casts great either.

I don't think stats are the be all and end all but to close or overturn the (statistical) gap between Robinson and Ewing (especially peak wise)

Actually it's not big at all.

Ewing- 29/11/2/4/1, 55 FG%, 60 TS%
Robinson- 30/11/5/3, 1.7 spg, 51 FG%, 58 TS%

Though Ewing sustained it in the playoffs with 29/11/3/2, 1.3 spg, 52 FG%, 58 TS% over 2 series while Robinson dropped to 20/10/4/3 on 41 FG%/47 TS% in his only series that year.

So peak numbers are virtually identical, though over the course of their primes, Robinson has a clear edge statistically, though as you yourself said, stats aren't the end all be all.

[redhonda76]

I don't see why Robinson couldn't lead the Knicks just because he was Christian and didn't scowl (which is the implication behind the "hard vs soft" dichotomy). The Knicks identity was as a hard nosed defensive club and that was from everyone, Riley, Oakley, Mason, Starks, Harper (and before him Cheeks and maybe Rivers), Greg Anthony. Robinson was a DPoY and would be better equipped than Ewing to turn that elite D and rebounding into fast break points.

Looking at the logs it seems Chicago's dobermans did cause some TO problems (as I imagine they did to all go to guys), but Robinson logged some big fg% steal, block and rebound nights versus the Bulls.

The Knicks team would have an issue with Robinson. Oakley was always been very vocal in the locker room. He would call you out if your head was not in the game. Oakley even called out Vince for being soft when he was in Toronto. If Rodman didn't respect David, why would Oak?
Also there would no way Robinson can control Starks, Mason and Anthony. Ewing had to screamed at them and put them in their place when they got technicals, bone-headed plays, out-of control emotions and showboating antics.

As far as Avery Johnson calling out Robinson, it was during the 95 WCF where Hakeem demoralized him. Avery stepped up as a leader and told the Spurs that they cannot count of David and must step up.

[NugzHeat3]

Okay well if it's one game and the source is Rodman, well put it this way I'm not losing any sleep over it. Cheers for the info tho anyway

I don't think stats are the be all and end all but to close or overturn the (statistical) gap between Robinson and Ewing (especially peak wise) I'd have to hear something mighty convincing. Both were great players but to me Robinson was in a different league.


I don't see why Robinson couldn't lead the Knicks just because he was Christian and didn't scowl (which is the implication behind the "hard vs soft" dichotomy). The Knicks identity was as a hard nosed defensive club and that was from everyone, Riley, Oakley, Mason, Starks, Harper (and before him Cheeks and maybe Rivers), Greg Anthony. Robinson was a DPoY and would be better equipped than Ewing to turn that elite D and rebounding into fast break points.

Looking at the logs it seems Chicago's dobermans did cause some TO problems (as I imagine they did to all go to guys), but Robinson logged some big fg% steal, block and rebound nights versus the Bulls.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...=&order_by=pts

I'm not strictly basing it on the numbers. I don't disagree that David Robinson was a better defender than Ewing but I don't think you can just replace Ewing with David without considering the intangibles and the possible impact of their personalities.

I just wonder how he'd fit into the Knicks concept. While the Knicks, like you mentioned, were great on defense at all positions, it was Ewing who anchored and led the defense which was hard nose, yes. But, they were also dirty and routinely one of the league leaders in techs, flagrant fouls, showed a lot of emotion, passion and weren't afraid to tell their teammates to rough someone up. I think it's possible Robinson's goody two shoes personality may rub off on his teammates the wrong way and I'm basing it because it actually happened since Rodman disliked him since he thought he didn't want to win badly enough, didn't show the same emotion and desire required to win.

Here's an example:

- Pippen did not seem to mind that Xavier McDaniel advised the Knicks' Charles Smith to be rough on Pippen and perhaps commit a flagrant foul early to let him know he meant business.

"If he gave him advice that would help, I'm sure he would be more than glad to take it," Pippen said. "If someone gave me good advice, I would take it as well."

That doesn't seem to be Smith's nature, but Pippen said that may not matter. "Once you get on a team that does that," he said, "you get that type of mentality."

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...s-horace-grant

The bolded is the point I'm trying to get across since I'm curious to how Robinson would fit into that culture. I'm not entirely sure if Robinson could play with that mentality. Notice how McDaniel, who was an ex-Knick, suggests Charles Smith to take Pippen out. That's the kind of stuff I'm referring to.

As for the Bulls/Spurs season games, I wouldn't look a great deal into it since teams have more time to game plan around a player. I don't have the #s but I'd bet he didn't struggle to the same degree vs the Jazz in the 1994 and 1996 season as much as he did in the playoffs. Jazz made the switch with Karl Malone guarding him and he really bothered him with his swipe, pushing him away from the basket and from his favorite spots and the guards, especially Stockton, did a great job of helping out. The same way I'd expect Chicago to switch up their strategy, perhaps having Horace Grant guard him, sending more help ect. That's the biggest issue with Robinson since his flaws are just way too magnified in the playoffs against good defensive teams.

[Amare4lyfe]

This is where stats doesn't do justice for Ewing. Knicks ran one of the slowest offense ever in the NBA. Of course Ewing points and rebounds would be lower. Not to mention he played with Oakley, who also was a legit rebounder. Many young people in ISH never saw Ewing and Robinson and just base their opinion by looking at stats.
I'll take the warrior Ewing.

[JohnnySic]

Robinson's stats jump off the page more but I always got the sense that Ewing's play was more "substantial", if that makes sense...

[Kblaze8855]

Kinda annoys me when it seems like people intentionally leave out information that doesnt help their arguments. Elliot was a 2 time all star on the spurs and people talking about guys like Mason who made it on the Hornets and Harper who just...almost made it...on the Mavs.

[Bigsmoke]

David Robinson was just better. period.

[FindingTim]

video game: Robinson
real life: Ewing

[ShaqAttack3234]

This is where stats doesn't do justice for Ewing. Knicks ran one of the slowest offense ever in the NBA. Of course Ewing points and rebounds would be lower. Not to mention he played with Oakley, who also was a legit rebounder. Many young people in ISH never saw Ewing and Robinson and just base their opinion by looking at stats.
I'll take the warrior Ewing.

True, we saw the same thing with Robinson when he played with Rodman.

Robinson averaged between 12-13 rpg each of his first 3 seasons, then 11.7 in '93, but in '94, Rodman joined the team and Robinson's rpg dropped to 10.7 despite playing a career high 40.5 mpg.

Now look at the '95 season. In the 33 games Robinson played without Rodman, he averaged 12.5 rpg, but in 48 games with Rodman, Robinson averaged just 9.6 rpg.

Now look at 1996 when Rodman left, Robinson was back up to 12.2 rpg for the entire season.

You see a similar thing in 1990 with Ewing. Oakley missed 21 games that year and in those games, Ewing averaged 12.3 rpg, but when Oakley played, Ewing averaged 10.4 rpg. Of course, Ewing had better rebounding seasons after that as well as the Knicks forced more missed shots and Ewing's scoring load decreased.

Then in 1995, Oakley missed 32 games and Ewing averaged 12.7 rpg in those games, but in the 47 games with Oakley, he averaged just 9.8 rpg.

Ewing's career high in rpg actually came in '93 when he averaged 12.1, and Oakley actually played all 82 games that year. Riley was campaigning for Ewing to win MVP that year, though Hakeem, Barkley and Jordan obviously all had better years, and were better players at that time.

Kinda annoys me when it seems like people intentionally leave out information that doesnt help their arguments. Elliot was a 2 time all star on the spurs and people talking about guys like Mason who made it on the Hornets and Harper who just...almost made it...on the Mavs.

True, Elliott was a very good player. Athletic player who could shoot, take his man off the dribble and post up a bit, plus he had very good size. He was also always a good defender, imo.

Ewing had more help defensively, imo, while Robinson had better offensive casts. Their casts weren't made up of scrubs who were only in the league a few years.

Mason was certainly a quality player, very versatile as he did play some point forward, though I was never entirely comfortable with him handling the ball, though he was a good passer, used his strength well in the post, could rebound and he was an excellent defensive player, I've seen him do a very good job on perimeter players and PF/C.

Though Don Nelson trying to push for Mason to be the first option was a pretty big mistake in '96.

I'd only say that Ewing had weak casts in '90 and '91, and in fairness, they underachieved even for their talent level in '91, and the '96 teams had too many issues, and Ewing was partially to blame for feuding with his coach. Excluding Ewing's first few years, of course.

Robinson's weakest cast, imo was '94, though they had a few good players. His '91 team probably overachieved in the regular season with all of those injuries, but were upset in the first round, and Robinson really didn't dominate a Warriors team he should have with them playing their "big men" being Mario Elie(who was playing PF) along with Tom Tolbert and Tyrone Hill playing center.

And before someone posts Robinson's stats to that series, I'll just say watch the series, even during a few of the games, the announcers would say Robinson's numbers during the end of the game and mention how quiet they were. Plus, those Warrior teams always allowed big numbers due to their pace, style and lack of defense, along with the fact that they eliminated much of Robinson's defensive impact.

In general, I really have a hard time remember dominant playoff series from Robinson. The one that comes to mind would be '96 vs Phoenix, but that was a very weak defensive team, especially in the frontcourt, and after that, he had another really weak series vs Utah, as he always did. He did play well in '93 vs Phoenix, I don't put that loss on him, Phoenix was just the most talented team in the league and Barkley was amazing that series.

But it really was the lack of a go to move or two in the post. I really can't think of one that seemed reliable to me. He had that awkward looking hook he'd go to occasionally, and a turnaround that he didn't really fade on, but it was mostly facing up, hitting some 15 footers, running the floor and catching lobs. It wouldn't matter to me, except that didn't prove nearly as effective in the playoffs.

[knickswin]

i'm not even a huge ewing fan because he was kind of soft for his size and not such a willing passer, but I'd take ewing. he had a more complete scoring arsenal. better half court center. robinson was a face-up softy.

1990 patrick ewing too bad he got injured. guy was a monster.