Would you rather play with Pippen and Rodman or Wade and Bosh?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Same goes for LeBron. That's why he's in a different jersey, playing for WADE'S franchise.

He recognized his own limitations as a player, and instead of trying to improve upon them, he bailed and asked Wade for the help.

Honestly, I just don't agree with this point of view. Lebron joining the Heat was a non-issue to me. How he did it made him come off as an attention whore and a clown, but that wasn't really that important in the first place, much less a year and a half later. I definitely don't view leaving after your contract is fulfilled as "bailing". Or that it exposes any limitations, he simply went to the best situation he saw, which is what free agency is about. I don't think he should've purposely stayed in a city he either didn't want to be in, or pass up the city he wanted to be in the most. And I don't think he should've purposely gone to a team with less talent to make it more difficult to win. That simply doesn't make any sense to me.

With that being said, those saying Lebron finally had what other great players had is an understatement.

In the past 20 years or so, Lebron's situation is unique. Not only do they have arguably the 2 best players in the league, but a 7-time all-star in his prime as the 3rd option and additional depth after that with Chalmers/Cole, Haslem, Miller and Battier.

On paper some of those 80's rosters may look equal/arguably even better, but that's more than what Jordan or other greats have won with the last 20 years. No question. pauk bringing up Kobe is laughable. Kobe NEVER played on a roster that talented.

Now id like to ask you, were the blazers supposed to beat the lakers in 00? Were the bulls favored to beat the knicks in 94?

I don't agree with his view of Pippen either, I don't think we saw enough to conclude he was incapable of leading a team, in fact, I think he did very well all things considered.

But don't downplay the Blazers expectations. They had the highest payroll in the league, were probably preseason favorites to win the title, were widely considered the most talented and stacked team in the league and some were talking 70 wins for them. It would not have been a surprise had they beaten the Lakers. With that being said, by the time of the WCF, I'd say the Lakers were favored by most, iirc.

I don't hold that against Pippen since I judge players more by what they do in their prime or at least near it. Pippen was past his prime in 2000 and despite being a very good/valuable all around player was not on a team at that point who relied on him carrying them or a single player as the clear man.

The Blazers whole thing offensively was about having so many different scoring threats and a good size so that they could exploit whatever match up advantage they had on a given night. So Pippen was the leader, but not really "the man" or at least not in the traditional sense.

They definitely weren't favored in '94, and they didn't have the more talented roster. I'll give you that.

I wouldn't take bosh over kukoc to be honest. He's not an impact player.

This is where I'm really lost. Bosh vs Kukoc? Really? Kukoc was a bad defender, Bosh has in fact been good defensively with Miami. He's a considerably more capable scorer as well. Kukoc was a great passer, and a good all around player, but not on Bosh's level. No way in hell.

You mention Rodman's teams records with and without Rodman and then call Bosh a non-impact player, well look at Toronto with and without Bosh during his 5 all-star seasons there.

2006- 26-44 with Bosh, 1-11 without Bosh
2007- 41-28 with Bosh, 6-7 without Bosh
2008- 37-31 with Bosh, 4-11 without Bosh
2009- 31-46 with Bosh, 2-3 without Bosh
2010- 35-35 with Bosh, 5-7 without Bosh

And they were 22-60 after Bosh left.

Not much of a sample size with and without Bosh on Miami. In 2011, they were 55-22 with him and 3-2 without him which doesn't tell us much. And he hasn't missed a game this season.

But either way, I don't see how you can use Rodman's team's records with and without him to show his impact and then call Bosh a non-impact player when the same method suggests he has a big impact.

[Fiasco]

I rather play with Gasol and Bynum. I am gonna lead the NBA in shot jacking per game.

Nah, we all know you would rather play with yourself while looking at pictures of LeBron.

[bluechox2]

young folks clearly dont know who rodman and pippen are.

[SwooshReturns]

Honestly, I just don't agree with this point of view. Lebron joining the Heat was a non-issue to me. How he did it made him come off as an attention whore and a clown, but that wasn't really that important in the first place, much less a year and a half later. I definitely don't view leaving after your contract is fulfilled as "bailing".

You don't consider it "bailing" when your team was good enough to be EXPECTED to have gone to two straight NBA Finals, and you came up short. You don't think it's "bailing" when like a complete clown you promise your hometown a championship? Please dude ... by all intents and purposes, the going got tough, and he bailed. He wasn't in some horrific position with that franchise where he couldn't win the big one, he felt the pressure of winning and BAILED.

[D-Wade316]

young folks clearly dont know who rodman and pippen are.

And the casual fans, even the intelligent ones, don't have a ****ing clue who Dwyane Wade is.

[Teanett]

People don't realize Wade is probably the best player in the NBA and not even the best player on his team "who cares?". Hell Wade & Bosh without the Diva could win the title this year. You couldn't say that about a Pippen/Rodman lead team.

Oh, yes they would,
Put pip and rodman on the knicks instead of amare/melo.
They would win it.

[blablabla]

People don't realize Wade is probably the best player in the NBA and not even the best player on his team "who cares?". Hell Wade & Bosh without the Diva could win the title this year. You couldn't say that about a Pippen/Rodman lead team.

pippen won 50+games after jordan retired with grant as 2nd option wade needed shaq to win 50+games

[TheNaturalWR]

My bad, I thought the heat won in 07. Regardless, the point is that pippen was better, much better in his role on the bulls (even without jordan) than wade in his role as first option

Pippen is better at being a 2nd option than Wade is at being a 1st? It's not hard to look good when you have the G.O.A.T bailing you out whenever you needed it. If GM's were to pick a player to build around I GUARANTEE the majority would pick Wade. Scottie never averaged over 22 per as a second option and you're saying he's better than Wade? Scottie's one of the best all-around players in league history but I'm not taking him over Wade, sorry. There's no case whatsoever for Pippen > Wade.

[97 bulls]

Honestly, I just don't agree with this point of view. Lebron joining the Heat was a non-issue to me. How he did it made him come off as an attention whore and a clown, but that wasn't really that important in the first place, much less a year and a half later. I definitely don't view leaving after your contract is fulfilled as "bailing". Or that it exposes any limitations, he simply went to the best situation he saw, which is what free agency is about. I don't think he should've purposely stayed in a city he either didn't want to be in, or pass up the city he wanted to be in the most. And I don't think he should've purposely gone to a team with less talent to make it more difficult to win. That simply doesn't make any sense to me.

With that being said, those saying Lebron finally had what other great players had is an understatement.

In the past 20 years or so, Lebron's situation is unique. Not only do they have arguably the 2 best players in the league, but a 7-time all-star in his prime as the 3rd option and additional depth after that with Chalmers/Cole, Haslem, Miller and Battier.

On paper some of those 80's rosters may look equal/arguably even better, but that's more than what Jordan or other greats have won with the last 20 years. No question. pauk bringing up Kobe is laughable. Kobe NEVER played on a roster that talented.



I don't agree with his view of Pippen either, I don't think we saw enough to conclude he was incapable of leading a team, in fact, I think he did very well all things considered.

But don't downplay the Blazers expectations. They had the highest payroll in the league, were probably preseason favorites to win the title, were widely considered the most talented and stacked team in the league and some were talking 70 wins for them. It would not have been a surprise had they beaten the Lakers. With that being said, by the time of the WCF, I'd say the Lakers were favored by most, iirc.

I don't hold that against Pippen since I judge players more by what they do in their prime or at least near it. Pippen was past his prime in 2000 and despite being a very good/valuable all around player was not on a team at that point who relied on him carrying them or a single player as the clear man.

The Blazers whole thing offensively was about having so many different scoring threats and a good size so that they could exploit whatever match up advantage they had on a given night. So Pippen was the leader, but not really "the man" or at least not in the traditional sense.

They definitely weren't favored in '94, and they didn't have the more talented roster. I'll give you that.



This is where I'm really lost. Bosh vs Kukoc? Really? Kukoc was a bad defender, Bosh has in fact been good defensively with Miami. He's a considerably more capable scorer as well. Kukoc was a great passer, and a good all around player, but not on Bosh's level. No way in hell.

You mention Rodman's teams records with and without Rodman and then call Bosh a non-impact player, well look at Toronto with and without Bosh during his 5 all-star seasons there.

2006- 26-44 with Bosh, 1-11 without Bosh
2007- 41-28 with Bosh, 6-7 without Bosh
2008- 37-31 with Bosh, 4-11 without Bosh
2009- 31-46 with Bosh, 2-3 without Bosh
2010- 35-35 with Bosh, 5-7 without Bosh

And they were 22-60 after Bosh left.

Not much of a sample size with and without Bosh on Miami. In 2011, they were 55-22 with him and 3-2 without him which doesn't tell us much. And he hasn't missed a game this season.

But either way, I don't see how you can use Rodman's team's records with and without him to show his impact and then call Bosh a non-impact player when the same method suggests he has a big impact.

I strongly disagree with the notion that jordan didn't have as much help as the any team before or after him. The bulls had 4 hofers not counting jordan. They won 55 games without him. I don't see why or how you could feel this way.

Look at the bosh/kukoc comparison. Its a stretch to say bosh wasn't an impact player. My point was that they (the raptors) weren't much of a team with or without him. And his stats were more or less a product of his being on a bad team. What did he avg last year? 18/8/2? In 35-36 minutes? Kukoc was roughly a 14/5 guy. And his 36 minutes stats are right with bosh. He's roughly a 17/6/6 guy based off of 36 minutes. And if he plays 38 to 40, like bosh did in toronto, his stats are better than bosh. And his impact on that bulls team is similar to the impact that Bosh had on toronto. In 99, the bulls were 13-37. Kukoc missed 6 games. The bulls were 0-6. The bulls "big 3" were brent barry, ron harper, and kukoc. There's no doubt in my mind that kukoc does better than bosh in toronto.

[97 bulls]

Pippen is better at being a 2nd option than Wade is at being a 1st? It's not hard to look good when you have the G.O.A.T bailing you out whenever you needed it. If GM's were to pick a player to build around I GUARANTEE the majority would pick Wade. Scottie never averaged over 22 per as a second option and you're saying he's better than Wade? Scottie's one of the best all-around players in league history but I'm not taking him over Wade, sorry. There's no case whatsoever for Pippen > Wade.

No no no. Again, how are we comparing these players? are we basing this comparison off of just offense? I said pippen was better at doing what he did best, versitility, defense, and running an offense, than wade doing what he does best which is scoring.

[97 bulls]

Another point id like to refute is the notion that bosh is a "good" defender. You know why why bosh ie relegated to defending the weaker of the center or power forward? Cuz he not a good defender. I even heard someone say in the joel antony thread that bosh was miamis defensive anchor. What a joke.

[TheNaturalWR]

No no no. Again, how are we comparing these players? are we basing this comparison off of just offense? I said pippen was better at doing what he did best, versitility, defense, and running an offense, than wade doing what he does best which is scoring.

Wade's best attribute is scoring but that doesn't mean he's a one-dimensional player. Wade's the second best ALL-AROUND player in the game today and the only player better is his teammate. You're gonna run an offense and never crack 25 per? Are you kidding me? Wade is a better scorer, passer, shotblocker, and was just way more dominant. Pippen was a better on-ball defender and 3 pt shooter and that's it. Your post makes no sense at ALL. Lets look at it like this shall we? Pippen at his best was no where near Wade at his best. Simple as that. So if we're building a franchise around somebody who are we taking? THE BETTER PLAYER and that's Dwyane Wade, not Pippen.

[oolalaa]

No no no. Again, how are we comparing these players? are we basing this comparison off of just offense? I said pippen was better at doing what he did best, versitility, defense, and running an offense, than wade doing what he does best which is scoring.

What does that mean? Do you think prime Wade was better than prime Pippen or not? If you could start a franchise with '09 Wade or '94 Pippen, who would you choose?

[PJR]

This dude 97 Bulls is on crack...

[hitmanyr2k]

I see no one is questioning the obvious. Which era of the NBA do these guys get to play in...Pippen and Rodman's tougher era or this lame ass era where players flop on offense and get rewarded with free throws? The way the game is called now with offensive players taking a dive anytime they can to get a whistle Rodman wouldn't be as effective. He'd still be a great rebounder but as a man defender he would probably foul out by the first half. Same goes for Pippen. His man defense would suffer but his team/help defense probably gets even better since he doesn't have to worry about illegal defense anymore. Pippen's offense also receives a boost since the defense isn't the same it used to be.

On the flipside could Bosh handle Rodman's era and still be the same player? I don't think so. Is Wade going to average 9-11 free throws a game to inflate his scoring average in the 90's? I doubt it. Refs weren't giving out free throws like candy back then the way they are now. They didn't bail players out for screaming like bitches or snapping their necks back and all the other bullshit theatrics players pull these days. We're talking about completely different eras these guys played in and it would certainly effect the way they play and their stats. I don't know why anyone hasn't taken that into consideration.