ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #10. John Havlicek vs Lebron James.

[creepingdeath]

Nah. Last thing i want is more people claiming i decided the outcome by just counting votes from other people. Your vote is your vote. I just wish i didnt know its reasons

Yet your reasoning was absolutely correct. I actually do believe Lebron is the better player and should be ranked in front of Havlicek, so go ahead and count it. Or don't count it at all. Hell, do whatever you want, but don't blame me afterwards.

[Doranku]

I'm going with LeBron James.

Hondo obviously accomplished more team accolades, but he played on a team with a top 5 GOAT - the best defensive player ever, and a myriad of other HoFers.

Was Hondo ever the best player in the league? Was he even close? He only has two top 5 MVP finishes in his career.. LeBron has two of the actual awards.

And when it comes to who was actually the better player, quite frankly it's LeBron in a landslide. Hondo was a great player, but is he leading that 2007 Cavs team past the Pistons and into the Finals? Is he dropping 35/9/7 over 15+ games in the playoffs on 51% shooting? Is he anywhere near the mismatch nightmare that LeBron presents game in and game out?

[RRR3]

What is that gif from?

[Pointguard]

Im kinda wondering which games these would be. his 3 most televised games would be the game where Kareem hit the game winning hook in the 74 finals(Hondo had 36 to lead all scorers and a nice floater over Kareem to get the lead Kareem erased at the buzzer). The 69 finals game 7 where he had 26/9/5. And the 76 finals triple OT game where he didnt score much(probably 20 or so) but was all over the place in the big famous moments including hitting the shot that had the garden storm the court thinking it was over before Heard hit the turnaround to force a 3rd ot.

Im not saying you have to be impressed by him in those games. But it would be hard not to really have him get your attention in them. Im wondering what you could be watching of him where he doesnt stand out. 64 finals comes on now and then but he was young and not a superstar yet.

They were mid to late 60's games on reel to reel. I didn't see much of the 70's except the Knicks, McAdoo, Kareem and Moses, once again on reel to reel. They played the Celtics in some of those games, but I recall only Dave Cowens clearly, Jo, jo white and Halivchek a bit. These games were opportune games here and there, what I could get my hands on.

[Gotterdammerung]

Lebron.

No GM will pick Hondo over Lebron in a fantasy draft.

This is a clear argument for who's the better player straight up. Switch them around -- I'd imagine LeBron learning at Bill Russell's tutelage and absolutely annihilate the league. Hondo in LeBron's place would be a Manu Ginobili type with more endurance, and probably better team chemistry, a scrappy mid-level playoff team, but not 60-plus wins or league MVP.

Yes, Hondo has had the greater career, but Lebron has been in the league only 8 years, so we're penalizing him for an incomplete resume against 16 year resume.

The reasons some people pick Hondo over Lebron are the ones I'd pick Dr. J over Lebron. This is getting troll-ish.

[magnax1]

I can't be the only one who watches Havlicek and gets the feeling he was never as good as he was made out to be. Hell, he never seemed to be as good as his stats either. He seems to be one of those guys that gets raised higher then guys better then him just because he won a ton. I mean... he's ahead of Elgin Baylor. That's a bit crazy to me. I'd have to say the same about Lebron too. He just wasn't ever on Lebron's level.
lebron

[pauk]

before i start... remember that:

1. That John Havlicek was a SIDEKICK...
2. That Lebron was the best player in the NBA... a much more talented-dominant-significant player...
3. That Lebron was in Top 10 in MVP voting almost all of his seasons, except his rookie year.... with multiple #1 votes every season... where as Havlicek was not even close to 1....

LEBRON JAMES

2 x MVP
2 x All-Star MVP
Rookie of the Year
7 x NBA All-Star
1 x NBA scoring champion
5 x All-NBA 1st team
3 x All-Defensive 1st team
All-Rookie 1st team
1 x Gold Medal
17 x Player of the Month trophies (most in NBA history)
2 x Best NBA Player awards


STATS:

17362 points @ 27.7 PPG (#3 all time)
4451 rebounds @ 7.1 RPG
4364 assists @ 7.0 APG
1079 steals @ 1.7 SPG
532 blocks @ 0.8 BPG
40 total triple doubles

PER - 26.9 (#2 all-time and #3 in Playoffs, after Michael Jordan)


NBA achievements

One of eight players in NBA history to score 2,000 points seven consecutive seasons..[1] Includes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Wilt Chamberlain, Michael Jordan, Alex English, Karl Malone, Oscar Robertson, Dominique Wilkins.

One of four players in NBA history to average at least 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists in their rookie season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Michael Jordan, Tyreke Evans.

One of five players in NBA history to average over 25 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season (achieved this four times).[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this six times), John Havlicek (achieved this twice), Larry Bird, and Michael Jordan.

One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 7 rebounds and 7 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this five times) and Michael Jordan.

One of four player in NBA history to average at least 31 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists in a season.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson (achieved this twice), Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.

One of two players in NBA history to average at least 27 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for six consecutive seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this eight consecutive times.

One of two players in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds and 500 assists in a season for at least six seasons.[1] Behind Oscar Robertson, who achieved this six times in his career.

One of four players in NBA history to average at least 25 points, 5 rebounds and 5 assists for their career.[1] Includes Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Michael Jordan.

Only player in NBA history to average at least 26 points, 6 rebounds and 6 assists for their career.[1]
Only player in NBA history to post at least 2000 points, 500 rebounds, 500 assists and 100 steals in four straight seasons.[1]
One of three players in NBA history to average at least 30 points, 10 rebounds and 7 assists in a postseason series.[2] Includes Oscar Robertson and Larry Bird.

One of three players in NBA history to record a triple-double in their playoff debut.[1] Includes Johnny McCarthy and Magic Johnson.

One of two players in NBA history to win the NBA Player of the Month Award four times for two consecutive seasons.[3] Tied with Kevin Garnett, who achieved the same in the 2003-04 NBA Season.

One of four players in NBA history to lead their team in all five major statistical categories (total points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals) in a season (2008–09 season).[4] Includes Dave Cowens (1977–78), Scottie Pippen (1994–95) and Kevin Garnett (2002–03).

1st player in NBA History to receive 2.5 million NBA All-Star votes on 3 separate occasions.
1st player in NBA History to score at least 40 points in the first road playoff game with 41 points at the Washington Wizards on April 28, 2006.
1st player in NBA History to lead the team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks for two consecutive seasons (2008–2009, 2009–2010).
1st forward in NBA history to average more than 8.0 assists per game (2009–2010).
2nd place all-time for consecutive 20-point games to start a playoff career with 19.[5] Behind Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's 27 consecutive games

Most consecutive points scored for a team in a playoff game with 25 straight points at the Detroit Pistons on May 31, 2007.[6]


Youngest player records

James owns numerous NBA "youngest player" records. He is the youngest to:

To be selected #1 overall draft pick (18 years of age).[1]
To be named NBA Rookie of the Year (19 years of age).[1]
To record a triple-double (20 years, 20 days).[1] Recorded 27 points, 11 rebounds, and 10 assists on January 19, 2005 vs. Portland Trail Blazers.
To record a triple-double in the playoffs. (21 years, 113 days).[1] Recorded 32 points, 11 rebounds, and 11 assists on April 22, 2006 vs. Washington Wizards.
To score 30 points in a game (18 years, 334 days).[1] Recorded 33 points on November 29, 2003 vs. Memphis Grizzlies
To score 40 points in a game (19 years, 88 days).[1] Recorded 41 points on March 27, 2004 vs. New Jersey Nets.
To score 2,000 points in a season (2004–05).[1]
To average at least 30 points per game in the NBA.
To be awarded All-NBA honors (2004–05).[1]
To be named to the All-NBA first team (21 years, 138 days).[1]
To win an All-Star Game MVP (21 years, 55 days).[1]
To lead the league in All-Star voting (22 years, 26 days).[1]
To lead the team in PPG (19 years of age).[1]
To score 2,000 points in seven consecutive seasons (26 years of age).[1]
To reach:[1]
Every thousand point milestone from 1,000 points through 17,000 points

[Kovach]

Hondo

I honestly could care less of how much better individually and physically Lebron is. Until Lebron wins at least one championship and finals MVP, he has no strong case to be ranked in the all-times rankings over Havlichek.

+1

Hondo for me for this exact same reason. Modern day Elvin Hayes has no business being ranked above him.

[Kblaze8855]

The actual Elvin Hayes finished ahead of hondo in MVP voting 3 times when he was contending from 73-76.

[L.Kizzle]

This is an All-Time ranking not who has more talent.
Tracy McGrady has more talent than Hondo I bet ...

[Pointguard]

I can't be the only one who watches Havlicek and gets the feeling he was never as good as he was made out to be. Hell, he never seemed to be as good as his stats either.

Exactly, if you see random games, you just don't get it with him. Maybe you hear Hondo and you think car and all you see is a un-adventful human.

[Kovach]

The actual Elvin Hayes finished ahead of hondo in MVP voting 3 times when he was contending from 73-76.

Yes, he was one of the greatest regular season players of all time, who cares?

[Kblaze8855]

I just found it amusing that you said the modern Elvin shouldnt be over him when the players ranked the actual Elvin over him while hondo was winning his last couple rings.

[jlauber]

Once again, Hondo is probably the most difficult player to rank among the "greats" in any of these lists. He was never even considered the best forward in his career. Still, he was a major part of EIGHT titles, including two AFTER Russell. He had some brilliant post-seasons, too.

Personally, I would take Dirk over Hondo, and would same with Lebron. BUT, if you factor in CAREER's, Lebron comes up short. Why? Havlickek played 16 seasons, and Lebron, despite missing college, has only played half as long. His PEAK is clearly better, but to claim that he has had a better CAREER at this point is questionable.

And I agree with other's here...if Hondo beat out Dirk, then he has to beat out Lebron.

Hondo.

[Pointguard]

before i start... remember that:

1. That John Havlicek was a SIDEKICK...
2. That Lebron was the best player in the NBA... a much more talented-dominant-significant player...
3. That Lebron was in Top 10 in MVP voting almost all of his seasons, except his rookie year.... with multiple #1 votes every season... where as Havlicek was not even close to 1....

Yeah, this win thing has totally decimated people's critical thinking skills. Not only that but Hondo's team won when only when he was a sidekick. His best years were when they lost. The second Cowens stepped up and it became his team, they won again.

You can arguably be the best all around, most complete player ever in the game, regularly be among the league leaders in scoring and be first team all defense, 2 time MVP. Unless the 70's was a vastly superior era can any justification be said for Hondo being superior. No MVP's. Didn't even pull top rank at his position much less always being in elite company.

The second you say PLAYER or GREAT or TOP Player or PERSONAL ACHIEVEMENT or DOMINATION are being measured, Hondo isn't in the same grade, and one could argue that he wasn't a top player (definitely not in the argument of being the best) or even among the greats of his time - and nearly devoid of domination. But team achievement, now Hondo's teammates got the spot on lock-down for him. Its getting really bad.