ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

[L.Kizzle]

The reason not to count the aba numbers is because we saw him in his prime in the nba and he didnt do anything remotely similar

He didn't ... can you name anyone on those ABA Nets teams ... yet most can name most of his 6ers teammates. He had a lil more help in Phila than NJ hence his average goin from the high 20 to the lower 20s.

[tpols]

The reason not to count the aba numbers is because we saw him in his prime in the nba and he didnt do anything remotely similar

He won an MVP award while in a league with prime Bird, Magic, Moses and KAJ. What do you mean he didn't do anything remotely similar? You mean he didn't put up the same numbers? He had an impact that was on par with top ten GOAT all time greats at the time. Fvck numbers..

[L.Kizzle]

He won an MVP award while in a league with prime Bird, Magic, Moses and KAJ. What do you mean he didn't do anything remotely similar? You mean he didn't put up the same numbers? He had an impact that was on par with top ten GOAT all time greats at the time. Fvck numbers..

Apparently his number went down so he's wasn't as good ...wired considering between 77 and 83, he took the Sixers to the Finals every year except 78 and 79.

[tpols]

Apparently his number went down so he's wasn't as good ...wired considering between 77 and 83, he took the Sixers to the Finals every year except 78 and 79.

He was also a pioneer for the modern guard.. jordan before jordan. Numbers should never be the only way you judge these guys.

[Kblaze8855]

Really...to look at his ABa numbers then NBA as if the situations were even similar just makes little sense. he went from a team bobby Jones said this of:

"He destroys the adage that I've always been taught -- that one man can't do it alone,"

To a team with 3 guys who were all star level all of them for offensive reasons. Hes got George who was all nba before him...World B Free who would become a 30ppg scorer once he left Philly...and Collins. And he joins them. he didnt eve ntake the most shots on the team.

The most shots a game he took in the NBA was less than his least inthe ABA. But when it was close(he took just under 21 one year in the NBA and just over 21 two years in the ABA) he scored the same 27ppg in both leagues. in 78 he was ona 55 win NBA team full of talent shooting 16 shots a game and playing a full 10 less minutes a game than in the ABA. in 1980 his points per minute were higher than in 3 of his 5 ABA seasons. He could have scored just as much in the NBA. he just didnt play the minutes or take the shots.

But because he was unselfish enough to not cause a disruption on a team full of egos by demanding shots 30 years later people act like he fell off....

Really...what was he supposed to do? Take 27 shots a game to prove he still had it? Nobody who saw him disputes that he was a monster. he had nothing to prove.

When eh decided to do more he did.

In the last 2 games of his finals he had:

37. 40. 36. 27. 23(30 point win), and when he finally won:

However, it was Dr. J who closed the door. Sensing his 1st NBA title, he made the biggest plays. With L.A. leading 106-104, The Doctor stole the ball from Kareem and dunked it home to tie the game at 106. Following a Laker free throw, Erving converted a 3-point play to give the 76’ers a 109-107 lead with 59 seconds left. After a steal, Dr. J then nailed a 1-handed runner over Magic from the top of the key to make it 111-107 with 24 seconds left.

you cant watch the guy and conclude he was just being held to 20-23ppg.

He just didnt shoot a lot when he had teammates who didnt require it of him.

This is why so many young players are selfish. If you dont try to show your ass every night people act like you cant.

I myself was once guilty of underrating the guy(mostly because my main memories were of old Doc) but the more I look into him and the more I see...

He was far better than hes often given credit for.

[eliteballer]

You have to understand something. There is a difference between pre-merger NBA and post-merger NBA. The post merger NBA wasn't better than the ABA just because you might think it had *always* been superior.

It was superior because it was the NBA COMBINED with the ABA. Thats not to forget all the running and lack of D in the ABA.

I mean really...Docs 80 season was just about as good as any ABA season he ever had from a numbers standpoint, except the rebounds and thats not surprising considering everyone had gaudy rebounding numbers in the ABA and they all went down when the leagues merged.

[Kblaze8855]

Spread over his peak ABA minutes his 80 season would be 32(31.5 rounded), 9 and 5 with over 2 steals and over 2 blocks. Put Doc in his prime on a team that had reason to ride him like his ABA teams and he probably would have been around 30ppg in the NBA.

[raiderfan19]

So you are arguing that he had these all world teammates and didnt win as a POSITIVE for ranking him higher? Really? Look you can call it what you want but dirk had a better nba career than doc and its basically inarguable. Dirk scored more on less shots while rebounding more and turning the ball over half as much. He also happened to lead a team to a title as the main guy which doc never did.

This isnt sabonis where we have to speculate what he would have done in the nba. He played in the nba(a much higher scoring nba than the current one) and we can use that to judge him. Those nuggets that you love saying were the same team the following season in the nba avged 10 less points a game in their first nba season. I reitirate something i said earlier(not in this thread) doc is one of the most overrated players in nba history.

[raiderfan19]

Wait, not only is Dirk better than Baylor, now he's better than Doc J?Up until last season, he was barley in people top 35 All-Time list, now he's moved all the way up to 15 or so? Title's of course are important, but people put too much on titles?
It's just like Elgin Baylor, he's a borderline top 15 FORWARD because he couldn't win the big one? And now Dirk Nowitzki, who just last season was no where near top 15 All-Time, is now there?
If you're a great player, you're a great player. Dirk has a title, Barkley doesn't. But I'm still taking Chuck.
Dirk has possibly made the highest jump in ranking history this past season. Even when KG won a ring, he didn't move up this much, why cause he was already high up on the list.

The issue with this is that comparing chuck to dr j, dr j wasnt anywhere near as good as chuck. I have no problem ranking chuck over dirk though i wouldnt necesarrily do it. Dr. J though? Nope.

[raiderfan19]

And yet again i will point this out, im comparing dirk to him, not elgin baylor. Dirk shot less than dr j, so the he didnt shoot alot in the nba argument has no merit in this case.

I dont think dr j was worse in the nba than the aba, i just think the league inflated his numbers. And 1980 WAS his peak kblaze. He was 29 years old.

[Kblaze8855]

He had very good teammates and they hurt his numbers. His numbers that were what you were complaining about.

And its nothing close to inarguable that dirk had a better NBA career. 2 finals, an MVP, and a win as #1 vs 4 finals, an MVP, and a win as #2 who is still a superstar(all NBa first team that year...5th in MVp voting and 3rd the season before)?

Lets not act like dirk has been some beloved always coming through shining light of glory icon. He spent most of his career being blamed(right or wrong) for losing over and over and over and going through letdown after letdown. This isnt Duncan or Shaq vs Doc. Dirk spent most of his career going between loved and hated. For example:

http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/10182857

We're going to look back on "2007 NBA Most Valuable Player Dirk Nowitzki" and laugh. Hell, some of us were laughing before he even picked up his trophy.

Nowitzki, who wimped out of the playoffs and took Dallas down with him, as MVP of this NBA season is flat out wrong. It's criminal. Felonious.

Dirk tore it up in the regular season, but his back was turned in the playoffs. (Getty Images)

But who's the felon? Who do we blame? We've got the crime nailed, but who do we convict?


Not Nowitzki. It's not his fault that he's a gutless fraud, a player with so much size and skill that the game comes easy to him right up to the point where the game gets hard. I'd call Nowitzki a bully, but he's not tough enough to be a bully. A bully would have taken the puny Golden State Warriors' lunch money, but Nowitzki hid behind Josh Howard, which is why the Mavericks became the first No. 1 seed to lose a best-of-7 playoff series to a No. 8 seed.

In the regular season Nowitzki averaged 24.6 points and shot 50.2 percent from the floor, and Dallas led the NBA with 67 victories. In the playoffs he averaged 19.7 ppg and shot 38.3 percent when Dallas lost in six games to the Warriors. And don't blame Nowitzki's deterioration on the chaotic style of the smaller, quicker Warriors. Do not go there. Nowitzki plays the same position as Utah's Carlos Boozer, who is pounding Golden State for 22 ppg and 14.7 rpg. Boozer has increased his production in the playoffs (from 20.9 ppg and 11.7 rpg in the regular season), which is what a true superstar does.

Nowitzki? He's a beauty contestant. Looks great, I'll give you that. But no substance.

Still, he's not the criminal here. He put up huge numbers for 82 games, and the Mavs won 67 of those games. So who do we blame for "Dirk Nowitzki, 2007 NBA MVP"?

Not the voters. It's not their fault they were sucked into Nowitzki's fraudulence, although in hindsight, which is all we have at the moment, Nowitzki already had been exposed in the 2006 NBA Finals as a withering daisy. Turn up the heat, and Nowitzki wilts. That's what happened last year against Miami, which harassed him into 22.8 ppg on 39-percent shooting to rally from a 2-0 deficit to win the title in six games. In that sixth game, in Dallas, Nowitzki scored two points in the fourth quarter of a 95-92 loss. MVP my ass.

To say its inarguable that dirk has a better career and claim hes simply better...when its virtually without doubt he would come in ahead of dirk if any number of people reasonably expected to know the game were asked?

What...what do you know that you think the rest of the world doesnt? That I dont? that makes it inarguable that dirk is better and had a better career? That I...and the many people who put him over dirk...dont know?

What new information do you have to offer?

7 foot Dirk got more rebounds(and in his prime has years of 7 or 8). That he scored more when Doc clearly made no effort to be a top scorer? Dirk got less turnovers as a guy who pretty much shot jumpers? Shooters shouldnt have turnovers. Nobody is looking at turnover numbers judging these guys. Really...someone throws Dirk the ball. he turns on his pivot looks at the basket...falls away and shoots. Why would he have many turnovers? What great shooters have a lot of turnovers?

You are just talking irrelevant shit now. Like im worried about the Nuggets total ppg(and for the record...they scored morei n the early 80s than they did in the ABA). In the 76 finals doctor J dropped nearly 40ppg on an NBA TEAM as of like...3 months from then. The only reason the Nuggets were even still in the ABA was a court order preventing them from leaving till seasons end. They and another ABA team or two would have been in the NBA in 1972 AND 75 if not for court orders. They were an NBA team in the ABA waiting for the legal process to let them go. It was 3 instant NBA all stars on a good NBA level team and Larry Brown coaching.

This isnt some gang of 1969 randoms who never made noise in the league who the ABA stuck together to fill a roster. Its Hall of fame NBA players(plural)...and all stars. An 8 time NBA all defensive first teamer guarding Doc.

Getting 45-48 points dropped on him.

Not gonna write it off as the ABA as if the color of the ball means Bobby Jones couldnt play D or as if 3 NBA al lstars learned to be NBA level over a summer.

Doc destroyed many NBA level teams and players and the only reason he didnt keep it up in the NBA was not needing to do it.

So now...hes hated on for numbers.

Dirk pretty much is todays Dr.J had they had their usual quiet exit last year and traded for Dwight Howard and won whenever the NBA returns.

The majority of his career he pretty much was getting hated on like im sure Doc was. Only doc made it tothe ECF or the finals all but one season before he was 34 and past his all nba days so maybe he was a bit less hated on without an 07 like collapse.

Dirk is what hes always been. I remember people laughing because I said he and KG were both on the Malone level 4 years ago.

But no way in hell is it inarguable which of them is better. Inarguable things arent disagreed with at the rate this is.

[WillC]

Sorry, posted in the wrong thread.

[RRR3]

Anyone who thinks Dirk is better than Dr. J needs their head checked.

[PTB Fan]

Anyone who thinks Dirk is better than Dr. J needs their head checked.

This...

And is this thing over because Dirk is winning by a lot

[D-Wade316]

Anyone who thinks Dirk is better than Dr. J needs their head checked.

Yeah. Not even close.