ISH All time top 25 Forwards voting. #13. Elgin Baylor vs Dirk Nowitzki.

[kenny817]

x2

That^

Dirk on mine

Dallas stand up

[raiderfan19]

Dirk. And i restate that dr j above him is laughable. Im imagining rick barry will be next but id prefer it to be dr j.

[Kblaze8855]

Dr j could be argued at like third or fourth. I wouldnt. But its not laughable to put him equal to or above anyone but duncan and bird.

[raiderfan19]

Yeah, it is. 24/8/4 in his prime, 22/7/4 for his career. Never won a title as the main guy. Only won one as a secondary guy. Played in a signifigantly higher scoring league while putting up now level numbers. Effecient but less so than dirk. Good defensive numbers but never an elite defender. The one caveat to the title as a secondary guy thing is that while fans of current players love to point out that _________ old guy played with x number of hall of famers its also important to note that all of the great old teams had a ton of hall of famers. Thats just the nature of a pre expansion league.

That said for some reason i though rick barry was better than his numbers indicate he was(in particular i thought he was more effecient) so i dont mind him being next.

[Kblaze8855]

I dont muc care about doctor js numbers. Its not a failing to shoot less than his talent allowed because he had capable teammates. He was clearly one of the most unstoppable players in the league and every time he made effort to score he did so. Im not gonna believe doc is scoring 21 a game out of an inability to score more. He just didnt need to

[raiderfan19]

The same thing applies to dirk though. Its not like dirk shot more than dr j in order to score more. In actuality they shot almost exactly the same. Dirk was more effecient because he could hit the 3 and hes one of the great ft shooters ever among great players. He also turned the ball over about half as much as prime dr j.

I know you dont care about his numbers and to a certain extent i understand that but dirk was better than dr j.

[raiderfan19]

For the record i know that this is a tough thing to do and youll never make everyone happy. While im complaining about dr j being too high if he was here there would be a ton of people complaining about him being too low if you put him here. Im just stating my opinions on the matter because im pretty that matchup wont happen

[Kblaze8855]

Lot of the things you say just dont make sense coming fro ma Dirk fan to me. You talk about 24/8/4 in his prime like its something to be mocked. Yes that was his MVP season(24.6/8/4 2 steals and 2 blocks)...but dirk put up 24.6/8.9/3 in his MVP season. What its impressive for dirk but not Doc? You can say he played in a faster era but when he didnt use it to take more shots im not sure how it matters. Both only took 20 shots in one season. Dirk scored 25.9 that year. Doc 26.9. You say hes 22/7/4 for his career. Dirk is 23/8.4/3 and hes not had 5 years of past his prime play to drag it down yet.

Doc simply did not put much effort into producing numbers so I dont see why we need to judge him by them. He was in the ABA dropping 39ppg in the 76 finals...vs a team that was in the NBA the very next season(a 50 win NBA team with 3 all stars including all time great stopper Bobby Jones who he dropped 45, 47, 38, and 42 on on absurd shooting percentages). What it doesnt count when you beat and destroy a 50 win team of NBA all stars when they have an ABA jersey on months before being in the NBA? They were even coached by Larry Brown.

He just didnt have reason to go so hard to score in the NBA because his teams were great and didnt lean on him. His numbers are close to irrelevant to me. As are dirks.

Both could no doubt do more than they have.

[raiderfan19]

Im not talking about any particular season. Im talking about both of their primes. And no his aba numbers dont mean anything because it was a different game. Dr j had one season in his career where he averaged 25 a game(admittedly an arbitrary number). Dirk has 5. As mentiomed dr j and dirk both won one title, dr j as a sidekick, dirk as the main guy.

Dirk was simply a better player.

[kenny817]

Im not talking about any particular season. Im talking about both of their primes. And no his aba numbers dont mean anything because it was a different game. Dr j had one season in his career where he averaged 25 a game(admittedly an arbitrary number). Dirk has 5. As mentiomed dr j and dirk both won one title, dr j as a sidekick, dirk as the main guy.

Dirk was simply a better player.

this^

[Kblaze8855]

The 76 nuggets were the same team in the nba the very next year with the same main guys and coach.

And nothing you just wrote is evidence dirk is better to me. Nothing. Like 5 25ppg seasons? Really? Dirk didnt do 25 this year. Or his mvp year. The **** does it matter?

And a title as sidekick vs best player? Do you think i believe dirk is better now than a year ago? Or that doc losing to showtime and birds celtics make him worse than people who beat the magic or bullets?

Its evidence. Career resume shit. Nothing id cite when saying one guy is flat out better than another. Thats an ability thing to me. And clearly docs ability isnt shown in numbers.

[L.Kizzle]

Wait, not only is Dirk better than Baylor, now he's better than Doc J?

Up until last season, he was barley in people top 35 All-Time list, now he's moved all the way up to 15 or so? Title's of course are important, but people put too much on titles?

It's just like Elgin Baylor, he's a borderline top 15 FORWARD because he couldn't win the big one? And now Dirk Nowitzki, who just last season was no where near top 15 All-Time, is now there?

If you're a great player, you're a great player. Dirk has a title, Barkley doesn't. But I'm still taking Chuck.

Dirk has possibly made the highest jump in ranking history this past season. Even when KG won a ring, he didn't move up this much, why cause he was already high up on the list.

[tpols]

And no his aba numbers dont mean anything because it was a different game..

How do his ABA performances not matter? I guess they didnt play basketball in that league..

[Kblaze8855]

I can see why not count the aba as the same but really.....the team he scored like 40ppg on in the finals was in the nba winning 50 games the very next season. With 3 nba all stars. Coached by a hof nba coach. With an nba dpoy level defender guarding doc. Im not calling that nothing.

[raiderfan19]

The reason not to count the aba numbers is because we saw him in his prime in the nba and he didnt do anything remotely similar