ISH All-time Top 25 Forwards Project #19: Dolph Schayes vs Dennis Rodman.

[LJJ]

More than what? Able to be plugged into any team and make them better? 17-23% better (which is better than anyone not named Jordan, Bird, or Magic), no matter what the circumstances?

Rodman can do that.

Maybe if you add him to already great teams. But you can't replace finals MVP type players with Rodman and have that team still win the championship. A lot of those teams wouldn't survive the first round in the playoffs. A lot of them wouldn't even make the playoffs probably.

Maybe the lesser finals MVPs such as Parker and Worthy, and that is incredibly questionable.

[Droid101]

Maybe if you add him to already great teams.

Based on what proof?

Based on his acctual career, every single team he was on won between 17% and 23% more games with him on the floor, than when he was off it.

[LJJ]

Based on what proof?

Based on his acctual career, every single team he was on won between 17% and 23% more games with him on the floor, than when he was off it.

You can't extrapolate those kind of statistics though.

Do you actually believe the 03 Spurs still win the title if you replace Duncan with prime Rodman? Since you say he improves his teams winning more than Duncan. Because you are seriously delusional if you think that.

[Droid101]

You can't extrapolate those kind of statistics though.

Do you actually believe the 03 Spurs still win the title if you replace Duncan with prime Rodman? Since you say he improves his teams winning more than Duncan. Because you are seriously delusional if you think that.

I didn't say that. Go back five posts and re-read.

If Duncan and Rodman are on the same team, it would be better to replace Duncan with the next best Scoring/Defending/Team Player PF/C than it would to replace Rodman with the next best Rebounder/Defender SF/PF.

[LJJ]

I didn't say that. Go back five posts and re-read.

If Duncan and Rodman are on the same team, it would be better to replace Duncan with the next best Scoring/Defending/Team Player PF/C than it would to replace Rodman with the next best Rebounder/Defender SF/PF.

Not really.

The answer to both "the next best Scoring/Defending/Team Player PF/C" and "the next best Rebounder/Defender SF/PF" questions in 2003 is Kevin Garnett. I would rather have Duncan and Garnett than Rodman and Garnett.

Of course you would.


What you mean is that Rodman is a better role player than Schayes is a star player. Sure. I'll give you that. Relative to their role Rodman is better. An all time ranking is not based on that though. It's based on overall quality. Not relative to role on the team.

Sure Rodman is a better 3rd guy than Schayes is a 1st. But Shayes is a better 1st guy than Rodman is a 1st and that is what matters in an all time best player ranking.

[Droid101]

Not really.

The answer to both "the next best Scoring/Defending/Team Player PF/C" and "the next best Rebounder/Defender SF/PF" questions in 2003 is Kevin Garnett. I would rather have Duncan and Garnett than Rodman and Garnett.

Of course you would.


What you mean is that Rodman is a better role player than Schayes is a star player. Sure. I'll give you that. Relative to their role Rodman is better. An all time ranking is not based on that though. It's based on overall quality.

Rodman and Duncan or Rodman and Garnett would be a better team than Garnett and Duncan. You can take that to the bank.

[LJJ]

Rodman and Duncan or Rodman and Garnett would be a better team than Garnett and Duncan. You can take that to the bank.

That is crazy talk sorry. Duncan + Garnett is the perfect duo.

[L.Kizzle]

Hmm. Thank goodness Schayes beat Pierce.

[Kblaze8855]

If im reading that right....Rodman beng the best 3 by more than MJ is the best 1 means...you take him as your third best player before Jordan as your best?

Problem is...if Rodman is your third best player you have 3 hall of famers. MJ can be your best with a d league team behind him.

So thats....barely even worth considering.

And that is taking what I saw to be the most reasonable thing possible. At a glance its much worse than im assuming its underlying message is.

[Droid101]

Here are the facts. If you want to construct the perfect NBA team, you have to include Dennis Rodman, because he is by far the best at one aspect of the game (rebounding, offensive and defensive). By far. Meaning, that nobody is as good at their thing, as he was at rebounding (the closest would be John Stockton at getting assists, I think).

So, start with him, and then build around him.

Magic, Jordan, Shaq, any generic SF, and Rodman. Game over.

No team needs five scorers on the floor. Rodman makes every team better.

Anyway, as stated, I don't see anyone writing 50 page essays on why Dolph Schayes is the best player ever. If you actually read this, there is really no contest here.

http://skepticalsports.com/?p=112

[Kblaze8855]

I watched Rodmans whole career. I dont need a no doubt absurd article trying to convince me of something that isnt true due to numbers no doubt impressive but not totally because of him. Im not gonna pretend that hes been on an untalented team...ever...and act like the rate he wins is because of him. I like Dennis. A lot. I have a lot of respect for his approach. But he isnt anything close to the best player ever or the most impactful regardless of any numbers that might say otherwise.

[NugzHeat3]

That isnt really fair. The spurs won 50 or more for much of the 90s. Why wouldnt they do so after rodman? Drob was an mvp level player. But the pistons spurs and bulls all won the most games in their history to that point with him.

And the pistons went from average to 20 wins when he left and they still had isiah and dumars. Isiah missed time but they went to straight doormat mode. They were 14 and 44 with isiah. Laimbeer was done but he was an 8 and 5 player by the previous seasonn anyway.

Rodman was a difference maker. I have no doubt.

Good point regarding the Pistons. I see that in their record in the games he played and missed.

1992-93 season.
36-26 with Rodman and just 4-16 w/o.

But like I said, the distractions are still there because those 18 games he missed are because of suspensions since his mind just isn't in the right direction or better put, the same page with the coach's. The organization wouldn't call him out otherwise.

Now, I realize he was still a distraction in his days with Chicago with incidents like headbutting the official, kicking the cameraman ect but Phil and them were able to put up with it and knew how to keep him focused and motivated.

Same thing with San Antonio in the 1995 playoffs. They wouldn't just give him away like that.

[Kblaze8855]

I often find talk of distractions in sports odd. How mentally weak are nba players if Rodman saying something odd in an interview or having emotional issues while performing as well as he could every single night(who ever questioned his will to win when on the floor?)....keeps them from playing well. Or...what? Working out well? Watching film? what does a distraction actually do?

Is there anything in the results of his teams that suggests he made teams worse than they should be? The Pistons won 2 rings with him and were better than they should have been after that and totally fell off without him. The spurs won more than they ever had with him. They were on a 67 win pace in the games he played in 95.

Ive heard it said he Phil would send him out to party just to get his head straight. Send him to vegas for the hell of it. he comes back and gets 25 rebounds(10 on offense), shuts down a star, and hands out 4-5 assists and flat out brings it.

I dont see how he is a distraction. he shouldnt be. To grown men? He makes Michael Jordan less focused on winning? Or Isiah and dumars?

Perhaps he could shake up Drob but really...I think we need another word.

Rodman was always great on the floor. His antics might get him suspended or something but that doesnt mean hes a distraction does it? Maybe it just means hes crazy. But I dont think there is any evidence he made any team worse than it should have been.

So what is his distraction doing exactly?

You could say teams got rid of him so it must have been doing something but...I just dont see it in the results. Behind the scenes shit perhaps. But his performance must have overcome it.

[RobertdeMeijer]

For what it's worth: even my Dutch sister knows who Dennis Rodman is.

He was never larger than the NBA, but is up there with Magic, Shaq and Erving as players who are interesting enough to can talk about during Thanksgiving.

[Lebron23]

Dolph Schayes was the better individual player. He averaged 19/13 through his NBA Career.