Why is Magic rated so high?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Nobody is trying to discredit anybody. How much times do I have to say it?

We're just wondering why Kobe tends to get so much more discredited than other All-Time Greats in regards to winning with "help". No super-star in history gets more hate for playing with other great players and no superstar gets involved in more ridiculous hypothetical situations. For example, "replace Kobe with any other All-Star guard and the Lakers still win three in a row" or "Kobe only won from 08-10 because he had the best supporting cast in the league" or "Put Kobe on the Clippers and he'd have 0 rings". You never hear these scenarios with other legends, or at least not to the same extent. Not even close. It's bullshit.

It has nothing to do with Jordan.

Its because Kobe has special rules.

Bird, Magic and Jordan can have two or more HOF teammates and its not even worth bringing up yet Kobe would be nothing without Shaq err Gasol.

[Jacks3]

It really is ridiculous.

[Pointguard]

Kareem was a Finals champion and its MVP and was a multiple MVP winner before he even heard of Magic Johnson.

Yet, Magic never won anything without Kareem in the middle.

So my question is,

why doesn't Magic get downgraded for playing with the GOAT?

Before Magic, Kareem just wasn't a winner in weak free-for-all-era. Then in the strongest era Magic wins more Finals MVP's than Kareem does in his prolonged career. Who ranked higher in the MVP rankings after Magic joined the Lakers? Who ran the team? Who made the decisions and was in charge of the ship? Magic not only made an unusual amount of decisions on the court he dictated pace, who and how the team would feature what player and when. When the Lakers were the most efficient team ever it was because Magic distributed the ball and made sure people got the ball where they wanted to get the ball and then on top of that, he lead them to places where they should be. There was no question as to who the leader was or whose play directly influenced the team.

Magic won it all with Kareem being a non factor, and got to the finals without Kareem in the toughest era of the sport. Only a hungy GOAT MJ could stop Magic, who btw, lost his second best player and his third best player was also compromised. I just can't imagine Magic winning only one ring in the 70's. Magic's will, savvy, leadership, control and creativity was what made those Laker teams of the 80's win. Kareem was great but his role wasn't greater than Magic's after '83. Now some can argue Kareem was a better player on a couple of the early '80's Championship teams but he didn't have more influence on those teams.

Now you can downgrade Magic but not without downgrading the greatest era in the sport along with all of the other great players of that era as well.

[Pushxx]

It's irresponsible to downplay Magic Johnson's supremacy as a a player. He is unarguably in the top 3 guards of all time.

He was a winner through and through. He proved himself as an unbelievable floor leader with an unmatched skillset as a guard.

No offense but I don't really get this thread or what's going on it it. Who the hell could doubt how good Magic Johnson was?

[97 bulls]

This is why I continue to say that we need too stop trying divy out the credit to players on championship teams. Take kobe off the lakers and they don't win. Take jabaar off the lakers and they don't win. Take any of the top 3-4 players off a championship team, and they don't win a championship.

And I do kind of find it hypocritical that magic gets full credit for his role on five championship teams, especially when based on ish criteria, he wasn't the best player for two of them. But kobe only get credit for 2 of his championships becausee he played alongside shaq.

[Jacks3]

I agree that people focus way too much on being "the man".

Kobe in the 01 playoffs was very easily better than he was in 2010 and yet he somehow gets less credit because he played with Shaq. That makes no sense to me.

[Dragonyeuw]

Nobody is trying to discredit anybody. How much times do I have to say it?

We're just wondering why Kobe tends to get so much more discredited than other All-Time Greats in regards to winning with "help". No super-star in history gets more hate for playing with other great players and no superstar gets involved in more ridiculous hypothetical situations. For example, "replace Kobe with any other All-Star guard and the Lakers still win three in a row" or "Kobe only won from 08-10 because he had the best supporting cast in the league" or "Put Kobe on the Clippers and he'd have 0 rings". You never hear these scenarios with other legends, or at least not to the same extent. Not even close. It's bullshit.

It has nothing to do with Jordan.

Agree 100%. Out of interest, why the style change in your posts?

[DMAVS41]

Its because Kobe has special rules.

Bird, Magic and Jordan can have two or more HOF teammates and its not even worth bringing up yet Kobe would be nothing without Shaq err Gasol.

because he wasn't an elite player yet in 00....and then was clearly not the best player on his team the next 2 years.

that has something to do with it. the other part is that his fans use those titles as proof of how good kobe is, but ignore other things. and of course kobe's play overall in the finals has something to do with it as well.

you really think people wouldn't be laughing at lebron if the heat had won and he played the way he did....or even if he played a little better? its not just kobe.

the truth is that kobe, like some of the players above, have had the great fortune of playing on some of the best rosters of their era. kobe got to play with a prime/peak shaq for 8 years and then has played with a top 3 roster for another 4 years of his career now. most guys are lucky to have 2 to 3 years in their career like that. kobe has had 12.

so when those 5>2 rings or whatever arguments come out, kobe gets hated on a bit more than he should because his level of play has been tremendous throughout his career.....its just not on the level that his fans want it to be...so they use rings as evidence and ignore the other stuff.

[Duncan21formvp]

It is pretty funny how nobody ever downgrades Magic for not being the best player on his team for his first three rings and yet Kobe is consistently hated on because he was 1B to Shaq for three straight titles and another Finals performance over 5 seasons. Plus, Magic played with Kareem/McAdoo/Cooper/Worthy/Rambis/Mychal Thompshon/Vlade/Scott/A.C Green etc for his entire career and you never hear him downgraded for that, yet Kobe has played with a entire 2 All-Stars over the course of his prime years (00-10) and people are always downgrading his rings for playing on "stacked" teams.

I guess the amazing Odom and Bynum's amazing 6 pts/4rbs average from 08-10 do make a big difference.

The difference is that Magic won league and finals mvp's later on with Kareem still on the team.

[Miller for 3]

The difference is that Magic won league and finals mvp's later on with Kareem still on the team.

Jordan'sBulls, why do you pretend to be a Spurs and Tim Duncan fan on ISH but are a huge MJ nutrider on realgm?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

because he wasn't an elite player yet in 00....and then was clearly not the best player on his team the next 2 years.

that has something to do with it. the other part is that his fans use those titles as proof of how good kobe is, but ignore other things. and of course kobe's play overall in the finals has something to do with it as well.

you really think people wouldn't be laughing at lebron if the heat had won and he played the way he did....or even if he played a little better? its not just kobe.

the truth is that kobe, like some of the players above, have had the great fortune of playing on some of the best rosters of their era. kobe got to play with a prime/peak shaq for 8 years and then has played with a top 3 roster for another 4 years of his career now. most guys are lucky to have 2 to 3 years in their career like that. kobe has had 12.

so when those 5>2 rings or whatever arguments come out, kobe gets hated on a bit more than he should because his level of play has been tremendous throughout his career.....its just not on the level that his fans want it to be...so they use rings as evidence and ignore the other stuff.

Kobe's play in the Finals has been consistent with every other elite wing's play against an unreal string of elite defenses. The two times Jordan faced defenses in the same defensive rating ballpark in the playoffs his numbers were far from Jordan like. By the way Kobe in 2000 was an all star, a second team all NBA team selection and a first team all defensive team selection. He was an elite player by any reasonable definition.


There is not a logical basis in the idea that players should be judged on whether or not they are the best player on a title team instead of players should be judged on the amount of help they had on a championship team. Why do people stop paying attention after Shaq? What about Robert Horry vs James Worthy vs Dennis Rodman vs Robert Parish vs Tony Parker vs Ray Allen? Basketball isn't a two man sport. I'd think young Kobe winning a title with next best 11 players is less impressive than young Kobe winning a title with prime Shaq and 10 role players. Don't you?