Scoring Wise:Kareem Abdul Jabbar vs Wilt Chamberlain?

[PTB Fan]

An interesting comparison.

Who's your choice?

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Kareem's game seemed to be finesse and refined skillfull post moves. Wilt just seemed to physically dominate guys and he never really looked all that polished. I'd take Kareem. He's the all-time leading scorer and the Skyhook if the most unstoppable weapon in NBA history. Both are among the greatest of all time though.

[Fatal9]

KAJ.

In context of the team, I don't find Wilt to be that great of a scorer. When your teams and offenses are best with you literally being the last option on the floor, it speaks to something (and Wilt literally was one of the last options on the floor of his best teams if you look at everyone's shot attempts per minute....and it's the opposite in Kareem's situation). I just get the feeling Wilt really really bogged down the offenses. It's not like I'm the only one who says this, when he got traded from the Warriors, his teammates were saying how happy they were that they finally had freedom on offense. For all his great scoring, his teams weren't even that great offensively year in year out, which is weird considering truly great volume scorers almost always elevate their team into a good offensive team. He might put up pretty numbers but makes everyone worse while doing it.

KAJ's playoff scoring runs are also much better. He scores in context of the team better (has a better balance), has a deadlier go to move, is more efficient when volume scoring (the difference is even larger than it appears due to FT shooting) and doesn't have a flaw like poor FT shooting hurting his teams. Much better player in the post as well, Wilt's advantage when it comes to scoring comes from offensive rebounding and being a better/stronger finisher down low...but in terms of scoring when it matters, scoring in a team setting, go to moves in the post...I don't think this is all that close.

[ShaqAttack3234]

KAJ.

In context of the team, I don't find Wilt to be that great of a scorer. When your teams and offenses are best with you literally being the last option on the floor, it speaks to something (and Wilt literally was one of the last options on the floor of his best teams if you look at everyone's shot attempts per minute....and it's the opposite in Kareem's situation). I just get the feeling Wilt really really bogged down the offenses. It's not like I'm the only one who says this, when he got traded from the Warriors, his teammates were saying how happy they were that they finally had freedom on offense. For all his great scoring, his teams weren't even that great offensively year in year out, which is weird considering truly great volume scorers almost always elevate their team into a good offensive team. He might put up pretty numbers but makes everyone worse while doing it.

KAJ's playoff scoring runs are also much better. He scores in context of the team better (has a better balance), has a deadlier go to move, is more efficient when volume scoring (the difference is even larger than it appears due to FT shooting) and doesn't have a flaw like poor FT shooting hurting his teams. Much better player in the post as well, Wilt's advantage when it comes to scoring comes from offensive rebounding and being a better/stronger finisher down low...but in terms of scoring when it matters, scoring in a team setting, go to moves in the post...I don't think this is all that close.

I agree 100%. Wilt's scoring numbers(particularly early 60's) were largely a product of their era. I don't know why the 39.5 FGA and 17 FTA aren't brought up every time the 50.4 ppg are. Not to mention the 48.5 mpg which included him playing every minute of 40, even 50 point blowouts. And then dropping to 35 ppg on Iverson-esque TS% in the playoffs.

Along with the pace of the game rapidly slowing, the lane widening and starting centers(rotation players getting bigger), his scoring numbers started coming down to earth, and they always did in the playoffs.

Not to mention that in his his 2 high scoring seasons(post lane-widening), he averaged 34.7 ppg on 51 FG%/51.3 TS% and 33.5 ppg on 54 FG%/54.7 TS%.

Kareem averaged 34.8 ppg on 57.4 FG%/60.3 TS% in 1972 and he said himself that he was better later which showed how deceiving stats are.

Another important point is how defensive strategies changed. Kareem mentioned in a '77 interview that he was pretty much played one on one during his first few years in Milwaukee, but that he was constantly doubled and tripled by the late 70's.

In most of the Wilt footage available, he seems to face far more single coverage than double teams, and I've heard many from that era mention that double teaming was rare.

By the time Kareem got stronger and improved his repertoire with the left hand sky hook and turnaround, he had no real weakness offensively, which makes him the greatest offensive center ever, imo.

His greater team success as a high scorer and Kareem's edge as far as go to moves and counters seals it for me.

From the footage I've seen, I don't see their footwork or touch as comparable, and Wilt's strength advantage isn't that big of a factor for me because he didn't seem to use it like a true power player. Part of that may have been that his lower body strength wasn't as great as people might think(just speculation, but it makes sense) and the fact that he looked awkward dribbling the ball while backing in. As well as Wilt's own claim that he didn't want to overpower people and wanted to prove he was skilled.

[millwad]

KAJ.

In context of the team, I don't find Wilt to be that great of a scorer. When your teams and offenses are best with you literally being the last option on the floor, it speaks to something (and Wilt literally was one of the last options on the floor of his best teams if you look at everyone's shot attempts per minute....and it's the opposite in Kareem's situation). I just get the feeling Wilt really really bogged down the offenses. It's not like I'm the only one who says this, when he got traded from the Warriors, his teammates were saying how happy they were that they finally had freedom on offense. For all his great scoring, his teams weren't even that great offensively year in year out, which is weird considering truly great volume scorers almost always elevate their team into a good offensive team. He might put up pretty numbers but makes everyone worse while doing it.

KAJ's playoff scoring runs are also much better. He scores in context of the team better (has a better balance), has a deadlier go to move, is more efficient when volume scoring (the difference is even larger than it appears due to FT shooting) and doesn't have a flaw like poor FT shooting hurting his teams. Much better player in the post as well, Wilt's advantage when it comes to scoring comes from offensive rebounding and being a better/stronger finisher down low...but in terms of scoring when it matters, scoring in a team setting, go to moves in the post...I don't think this is all that close.

This, totally agree.

And in terms of being effective as a scorer for your team's own good, Wilt won won his rings while being the 2nd and 4th option on offense. Kareem won 4 out of his 6 rings while putting up the highest scoring average for his team in the playoffs and in the playoffs Kareem both averaged more points per game and he did it on better FG% compared to Wilt.

And Kareem actually won around when he peaked in terms of scoring, while Wilt won one of his two averaging 14 points per game.

And based on offensive skillset this shouldn't be a debate.

[PTB Fan]

I agree 100%. Wilt's scoring numbers(particularly early 60's) were largely a product of their era. I don't know why the 39.5 FGA and 17 FTA aren't brought up every time the 50.4 ppg are. Not to mention the 48.5 mpg which included him playing every minute of 40, even 50 point blowouts. And then dropping to 35 ppg on Iverson-esque TS% in the playoffs.

Along with the pace of the game rapidly slowing, the lane widening and starting centers(rotation players getting bigger), his scoring numbers started coming down to earth, and they always did in the playoffs.

Not to mention that in his his 2 high scoring seasons(post lane-widening), he averaged 34.7 ppg on 51 FG%/51.3 TS% and 33.5 ppg on 54 FG%/54.7 TS%.

Kareem averaged 34.8 ppg on 57.4 FG%/60.3 TS% in 1972 and he said himself that he was better later which showed how deceiving stats are.

Another important point is how defensive strategies changed. Kareem mentioned in a '77 interview that he was pretty much played one on one during his first few years in Milwaukee, but that he was constantly doubled and tripled by the late 70's.

In most of the Wilt footage available, he seems to face far more single coverage than double teams, and I've heard many from that era mention that double teaming was rare.

By the time Kareem got stronger and improved his repertoire with the left hand sky hook and turnaround, he had no real weakness offensively, which makes him the greatest offensive center ever, imo.

His greater team success as a high scorer and Kareem's edge as far as go to moves and counters seals it for me.

From the footage I've seen, I don't see their footwork or touch as comparable, and Wilt's strength advantage isn't that big of a factor for me because he didn't seem to use it like a true power player. Part of that may have been that his lower body strength wasn't as great as people might think(just speculation, but it makes sense) and the fact that he looked awkward dribbling the ball while backing in. As well as Wilt's own claim that he didn't want to overpower people and wanted to prove he was skilled.

Nice post.

It's true that the NBA in the 60's didn't have double-teams in whole. I believe they played Wilt physically tough. But, i agree that defensively, what Kareem faced from team point (double teams, more great defenders, double-teams), was little more efficient and his scoring actually helped his team.

Wilt has an edge in versatility, scoring in bunches but these post really does a great job of eliminating that. Would you say that Kareem's 77 was his peak? It seems so.

He wasn't the skinny Lew that got little out matched physically when he played Nate and Wilt too (but not as much, as he scored 40 with 50% FG on him).

[ShaqAttack3234]

Would you say that Kareem's 77 was his peak? It seems so.

He wasn't the skinny Lew that got little out matched physically when he played Nate and Wilt too (but not as much, as he scored 40 with 50% FG on him).

Yes, here's a post I made about Kareem's '77 season. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=231270

I do believe that to be his peak, most of the top 10 players peaked in a championship season, but Kareem was one of the clear exceptions, imo.

[PTB Fan]

Yes, here's a post I made about Kareem's '77 season. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=231270

I do believe that to be his peak, most of the top 10 players peaked in a championship season, but Kareem was one of the clear exceptions, imo.

Yeah. Kareem had little bad luck with his team mates being injured when it mattered most, especially in the Bucks years as well.

[jlauber]

I'll address this later...but a hint...Kareem was NOT nearly the CLUTCH player that some here truly believe.

Meanwhile, Wilt took pathetic rosters to within an eyelash of beating HOF-laden Celtic squads,... as well as leading the league in SCORING, REBOUNDING, and FG%, in the SAME season...and in a season in which his TEAM had the BEST RECORD in the league.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

I'll address this later...but a hint...Kareem was NOT nearly the CLUTCH player that some here truly believe.

Meanwhile, Wilt took pathetic rosters to within an eyelash of beating HOF-laden Celtic squads,... as well as leading the league in SCORING, REBOUNDING, and FG%, in the SAME season...and in a season in which his TEAM had the BEST RECORD in the league.

Kareem must have been clutch enough because he won 6 Championships and most of those he was the Alpha Dog.

Wilt made some pathetic rosters good, but Wilt also lost when he had a stacked roster. Wilt, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor. There's no way they should have lost some of those. I'm not blaming him for the losses himself but when it comes to a players legacy that stuff weighs heavy. Wilt was great but regarding the question in the OP I think Kareem has him.

To me Lebron = Wilt in that they are both physically dominant players that didn't have to develop all their skills and because they we so much bigger, faster, stronger, and jumped higher than their competition. They both dominated the regular season but in the post season they fell short. Wilt won 2 so obviously he is better off than Lebron but he still underacheived by most peoples account.

[jlauber]

Kareem must have been clutch enough because he won 6 Championships and most of those he was the Alpha Dog.

Wilt made some pathetic rosters good, but Wilt also lost when he had a stacked roster. Wilt, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor. There's no way they should have lost some of those. I'm not blaming him for the losses himself but when it comes to a players legacy that stuff weighs heavy. Wilt was great but regarding the question in the OP I think Kareem has him.

To me Lebron = Wilt in that they are both physically dominant players that didn't have to develop all their skills and because they we so much bigger, faster, stronger, and jumped higher than their competition. They both dominated the regular season but in the post season they fell short. Wilt won 2 so obviously he is better off than Lebron but he still underacheived by most peoples account.

Wilt had West and Baylor for ONE near FULL season. They also were paired together in ONE other post-season. Now, let's examine those two post-seasons. One, Baylor was AWFUL...shooting .385. Not only that, but Wilt's COACH left Wilt on the bench in the last five minutes of a game seven, and i which Chamberlain had engineered a comeback from a 17 point deficit down to seven...all while scoring 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, and with 27 rebounds.

The second post-season? Well, Wilt was FOUR months removed from MAJOR KNEE surgery. Secondly, the Lakers had West, a Wilt at nowhere 100%, and an over-the-hill Baylor...and little else. Not only that, but they faced a heavily-favored Knick team that had wiped out Kareem's 56-26 Bucks in the ECF's, 4-1. Wilt, behind a 23-24-.625 Finals, and one ONE leg, got his 46-36 Lakers to a game seven. Yes, Reed injured his knee in game five, BUT, the series was tied 2-2 at the time...AND the Lakers were BEATING his Knicks by ten points in that game five when he went down. Had the officials not looked the other way in the second half of that game five, Wilt's 45-27 game six, on 20-27 shooting, would have been the clinching win.

Finally...had Chamberlain had the good fortune to have had a PRIME Magic for TEN seasons, and I suspect that he would have easily won six rings, too, if not more.

[jlauber]

Kareem a better scorer than Wilt? Just what in the hell is that based on? Wilt holds some 130 NBA records...MANY of them SCORING records. Furthermore, Kareem faced MANY of the SAME centers that a PRIME Chamberlain just DESTROYED. Where are Kareem's THREE 50+ point games against Reed? Where are Kareem's THREE 60+ point games against Bellamy? And find me the game in which Kareem outscored Thurmond by a 45-13 margin. THAT was what a PRIME Chamberlain was capable of. In fact, Wilt, in his 68-69 season, poured in TWO 60+ point games, and against Connie Dierking and Jim Fox. Kareem came into the league the very next season, and played againt both. Yet, he never came close to those types of games against them.

Kareem better in the post-season? Let's take a closer look. While Wilt was not only routinely facing a HOF center in the post-season, he was also battling HOF-laden rosters his ENTIRE career.

How about Kareem? In the decade of the 70's, which is arguably the WORST decade for CHAMPIONS in NBA HISTORY...Kareem won ONE title, and made it ONE other Finals. In fact, in their four seasons in the league together, Kareem and Wilt each won one ring, but Wilt had a 3-1 edge in Finals.

And let's take a closer look at that decade, too. In his rookie season, his 56-26 Bucks were blown out by the 60-22 Knicks, 4-1. And Kareem played brilliantly, too. BUT, Wilt had SEVERAL similar post-seasons in his career, and with teammates playing FAR worse...and yet, all we ever read is that Wilt was a "choker." How come Kareem doesn't get his share of the blame under the EXACT same circumstances?

And true, he won a ring in '71. However, has there ever been an easier road to a title than what his team, faced that season? They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round. Then they beat Wilt's 48-34 Laker team, that was withOUT BOTH West and Baylor (and a 34 year old Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, battled a PRIME Kareem to a statistical draw in that series, too.) Then, they swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

How about Kareem's 71-72 season? Arguably his greatest REGULAR season. 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, and .574 shooting. Then, in the playoffs...Kareem's 63-19 Bucks, with their overwhelming edge in talent, were able to overcome Kareem's 22.8 ppg .405 performance in the first round against the Warriors. BUT, then Kareem flops badly in the '72 WCF's against a 35 year-old Chamberlain that not only reduced Kareem to .457 shooting in the entire series, but a HORRIBLE .414 over the course of the last FOUR games...three of them Laker wins. And, Wilt really pounded Kareem in the clinching game six win, and in Milwaukee.

Kareem put up great numbers again in the 72-73 season (although he only shot .450 against Wilt in six regular season games...and Wilt shot .737 against him.) However, Kareem took his 60-22 team down in flames in the first round of the playoffs against Nate Thurmond's 47-35 Warriors (and in a series in which Oscar was brilliant.) Kareem averaged 22.8 ppg on .428 shooting. Of course, Wilt then took HIS 60-22 team to a blowout 4-1 romp over that SAME Warrior team...and in a series in which Wilt outrebounded Nate, 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg, and outshot Thurmond, .550 to .392.

Wilt retired after that...so the assumption was that Kareem would now FINALLY be able to get some titles. What happened? In game seven of the '74 Finals, and on Milwaukee's home floor, Dave Cowens outplayed Kareem in every aspect in leading Boston to a blowout win.

Oscar retired after that season...and guess what happened next? Kareem's Bucks went 38-44 (and only 35-31 with Kareem.) BTW, Kareem missed 16 games that season. How come? He broke his hand in throwing a punch. Why is that significant? For one, it cost Milwaukee any shot at the playoffs. But even more importantly, think about this: Wilt played a clinching game five of the '72 Finals with one badly sprained wrist...and the other FRACTURED. Not only that, Wilt DOMINATED that game, scoring 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks...en route to the Finals MVP. How come Wilt could play with TWO badly injured wrists (one broken), and yet Kareem missed 16 games with ONE injured wrist. AND, it would not be the last time Kareem would miss a chunk of season with a broken wrist, either. In any case, CLEARLY Wilt could play with a GREAR deal more pain.

As an interesting side note to that 74-75 season...Rick Barry, with rookie Jamaal Wilkes as his second best player, led a 48-34 Warrior team to a title. Here was Barry, with a ragtag roster winning a title. Oh, and more on Wilkes later.

The Bucks basically gave up on Kareem after that disappointing season. He was subsequently traded to the Lakers, along with Lucius Allen. While Kareem was able to help LA win a few more games (going from 30-52 to 40-42...and with HOFer Goodrich at his side), they didn't make the playoffs.

That 75-76 season also brings up another very interesting point about Kareem. In that season, he averaged 27.7 ppg, 16.9 rpg, and shot .529 from the field, in 41 mpg. Now, think about this... in Abdul Jabbar's 71-72 regular season, he played a career high 44 mpg, scored a career high 34.8 ppg, shot a much better .574, and grabbed nearly as many rebounds, at 16.6 rpg. So, here was the "front-running" Kareem, basically "stats-padding" on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 scoring differential. And yet, when his 75-76 Laker team NEEDED him to ELEVATE his game...he shrunk considerably.

THAT is a critical point in these Wilt-Kareem discussions. Wilt could LEAD the league in SCORING, REBOUNDING, and FG%...at the SAME time, whether it be for an AWFUL team, as he did in '63 (44.8 ppg, 24.3 rpg, and a then-record .528 FG%)...or he could LEAD the league in SCORING, REBOUNDING, and FG% for a team with the BEST RECORD in the league...as he did in the 65-66 season (33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, and .540 FG%...along with 5.2 apg.) Yet, Kareem, when faced with ordinary rosters, could NOT elevate his game. In fact, he had one of the WORST seasons of his career...and in the middle of his prime.

Kareem's 76-77 Lakers had the best record in the league, going 53-29. Yet, despite Kareem's brilliant post-season, they were SWEPT by Walton's 49-33 Blazers. Here again, Wilt had a MONSTER '64 post-season (34.7 ppg, 25.8 rpg, and on .543 shooting), but his 48-32 Warriors lost a five game series to a Celtic team that had an 8-2 edge in HOFers. Yet...all we read is how Wilt "choked", BUT, where is the criticism of Kareem in '77 then?

IMHO, Kareem had the MOST STACKED teams in the league in '77-78 and '78-79. He had players like Lou Hudson, Norm Nixon, Adrian Dantley (who was averaging 27 ppg when LA acquired him), AND a Wilkes who was now nearing his prime....in BOTH seasons. The result? LA went 45-37 in '78, and were brutalized in the first round by a 47-35 Sonics team that had ONE border-line HOF player in Dennis Johnson. BTW, the 44-38 Bullets won the title that season. Then, in '79, and again with that same basic talent-laden roster, Kareem's Lakers went 47-35, and were blown out in the second round, 4-1, by that same Sonics team.

So, that was Kareem's career in the decade of the 70's. ONE ring, TWO Finals, and mostly early round playoff eliminations, as well as two team's not making the playoffs.

More to come...

[Miller for 3]

I agree 100%. Wilt's scoring numbers(particularly early 60's) were largely a product of their era. I don't know why the 39.5 FGA and 17 FTA aren't brought up every time the 50.4 ppg are. Not to mention the 48.5 mpg which included him playing every minute of 40, even 50 point blowouts. And then dropping to 35 ppg on Iverson-esque TS% in the playoffs.

Along with the pace of the game rapidly slowing, the lane widening and starting centers(rotation players getting bigger), his scoring numbers started coming down to earth, and they always did in the playoffs.

Not to mention that in his his 2 high scoring seasons(post lane-widening), he averaged 34.7 ppg on 51 FG%/51.3 TS% and 33.5 ppg on 54 FG%/54.7 TS%.

Kareem averaged 34.8 ppg on 57.4 FG%/60.3 TS% in 1972 and he said himself that he was better later which showed how deceiving stats are.

Another important point is how defensive strategies changed. Kareem mentioned in a '77 interview that he was pretty much played one on one during his first few years in Milwaukee, but that he was constantly doubled and tripled by the late 70's.

In most of the Wilt footage available, he seems to face far more single coverage than double teams, and I've heard many from that era mention that double teaming was rare.

By the time Kareem got stronger and improved his repertoire with the left hand sky hook and turnaround, he had no real weakness offensively, which makes him the greatest offensive center ever, imo.

His greater team success as a high scorer and Kareem's edge as far as go to moves and counters seals it for me.

From the footage I've seen, I don't see their footwork or touch as comparable, and Wilt's strength advantage isn't that big of a factor for me because he didn't seem to use it like a true power player. Part of that may have been that his lower body strength wasn't as great as people might think(just speculation, but it makes sense) and the fact that he looked awkward dribbling the ball while backing in. As well as Wilt's own claim that he didn't want to overpower people and wanted to prove he was skilled.

This is the post of someone who knows basketball.

Kareem a better scorer than Wilt? Just what in the hell is that based on? Wilt holds some 130 NBA records...MANY of them SCORING records. Furthermore, Kareem faced MANY of the SAME centers that a PRIME Chamberlain just DESTROYED. Where are Kareem's THREE 50+ point games against Reed? Where are Kareem's THREE 60+ point games against Bellamy? And find me the game in which Kareem outscored Thurmond by a 45-13 margin. THAT was what a PRIME Chamberlain was capable of. In fact, Wilt, in his 68-69 season, poured in TWO 60+ point games, and against Connie Dierking and Jim Fox. Kareem came into the league the very next season, and played againt both. Yet, he never came close to those types of games against them.

Kareem better in the post-season? Let's take a closer look. While Wilt was not only routinely facing a HOF center in the post-season, he was also battling HOF-laden rosters his ENTIRE career.

How about Kareem? In the decade of the 70's, which is arguably the WORST decade for CHAMPIONS in NBA HISTORY...Kareem won ONE title, and made it ONE other Finals. In fact, in their four seasons in the league together, Kareem and Wilt each won one ring, but Wilt had a 3-1 edge in Finals.

And let's take a closer look at that decade, too. In his rookie season, his 56-26 Bucks were blown out by the 60-22 Knicks, 4-1. And Kareem played brilliantly, too. BUT, Wilt had SEVERAL similar post-seasons in his career, and with teammates playing FAR worse...and yet, all we ever read is that Wilt was a "choker." How come Kareem doesn't get his share of the blame under the EXACT same circumstances?

And true, he won a ring in '71. However, has there ever been an easier road to a title than what his team, faced that season? They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round. Then they beat Wilt's 48-34 Laker team, that was withOUT BOTH West and Baylor (and a 34 year old Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, battled a PRIME Kareem to a statistical draw in that series, too.) Then, they swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

How about Kareem's 71-72 season? Arguably his greatest REGULAR season. 34.8 ppg, 16.6 rpg, and .574 shooting. Then, in the playoffs...Kareem's 63-19 Bucks, with their overwhelming edge in talent, were able to overcome Kareem's 22.8 ppg .405 performance in the first round against the Warriors. BUT, then Kareem flops badly in the '72 WCF's against a 35 year-old Chamberlain that not only reduced Kareem to .457 shooting in the entire series, but a HORRIBLE .414 over the course of the last FOUR games...three of them Laker wins. And, Wilt really pounded Kareem in the clinching game six win, and in Milwaukee.

Kareem put up great numbers again in the 72-73 season (although he only shot .450 against Wilt in six regular season games...and Wilt shot .737 against him.) However, Kareem took his 60-22 team down in flames in the first round of the playoffs against Nate Thurmond's 47-35 Warriors (and in a series in which Oscar was brilliant.) Kareem averaged 22.8 ppg on .428 shooting. Of course, Wilt then took HIS 60-22 team to a blowout 4-1 romp over that SAME Warrior team...and in a series in which Wilt outrebounded Nate, 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg, and outshot Thurmond, .550 to .392.

Wilt retired after that...so the assumption was that Kareem would now FINALLY be able to get some titles. What happened? In game seven of the '74 Finals, and on Milwaukee's home floor, Dave Cowens outplayed Kareem in every aspect in leading Boston to a blowout win.

Oscar retired after that season...and guess what happened next? Kareem's Bucks went 38-44 (and only 35-31 with Kareem.) BTW, Kareem missed 16 games that season. How come? He broke his hand in throwing a punch. Why is that significant? For one, it cost Milwaukee any shot at the playoffs. But even more importantly, think about this: Wilt played a clinching game five of the '72 Finals with one badly sprained wrist...and the other FRACTURED. Not only that, Wilt DOMINATED that game, scoring 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks...en route to the Finals MVP. How come Wilt could play with TWO badly injured wrists (one broken), and yet Kareem missed 16 games with ONE injured wrist. AND, it would not be the last time Kareem would miss a chunk of season with a broken wrist, either. In any case, CLEARLY Wilt could play with a GREAR deal more pain.

As an interesting side note to that 74-75 season...Rick Barry, with rookie Jamaal Wilkes as his second best player, led a 48-34 Warrior team to a title. Here was Barry, with a ragtag roster winning a title. Oh, and more on Wilkes later.

The Bucks basically gave up on Kareem after that disappointing season. He was subsequently traded to the Lakers, along with Lucius Allen. While Kareem was able to help LA win a few more games (going from 30-52 to 40-42...and with HOFer Goodrich at his side), they didn't make the playoffs.

That 75-76 season also brings up another very interesting point about Kareem. In that season, he averaged 27.7 ppg, 16.9 rpg, and shot .529 from the field, in 41 mpg. Now, think about this... in Abdul Jabbar's 71-72 regular season, he played a career high 44 mpg, scored a career high 34.8 ppg, shot a much better .574, and grabbed nearly as many rebounds, at 16.6 rpg. So, here was the "front-running" Kareem, basically "stats-padding" on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 scoring differential. And yet, when his 75-76 Laker team NEEDED him to ELEVATE his game...he shrunk considerably.

THAT is a critical point in these Wilt-Kareem discussions. Wilt could LEAD the league in SCORING, REBOUNDING, and FG%...at the SAME time, whether it be for an AWFUL team, as he did in '63 (44.8 ppg, 24.3 rpg, and a then-record .528 FG%)...or he could LEAD the league in SCORING, REBOUNDING, and FG% for a team with the BEST RECORD in the league...as he did in the 65-66 season (33.5 ppg, 24.6 rpg, and .540 FG%...along with 5.2 apg.) Yet, Kareem, when faced with ordinary rosters, could NOT elevate his game. In fact, he had one of the WORST seasons of his career...and in the middle of his prime.

Kareem's 76-77 Lakers had the best record in the league, going 53-29. Yet, despite Kareem's brilliant post-season, they were SWEPT by Walton's 49-33 Blazers. Here again, Wilt had a MONSTER '64 post-season (34.7 ppg, 25.8 rpg, and on .543 shooting), but his 48-32 Warriors lost a five game series to a Celtic team that had an 8-2 edge in HOFers. Yet...all we read is how Wilt "choked", BUT, where is the criticism of Kareem in '77 then?

IMHO, Kareem had the MOST STACKED teams in the league in '77-78 and '78-79. He had players like Lou Hudson, Norm Nixon, Adrian Dantley (who was averaging 27 ppg when LA acquired him), AND a Wilkes who was now nearing his prime....in BOTH seasons. The result? LA went 45-37 in '78, and were brutalized in the first round by a 47-35 Sonics team that had ONE border-line HOF player in Dennis Johnson. BTW, the 44-38 Bullets won the title that season. Then, in '79, and again with that same basic talent-laden roster, Kareem's Lakers went 47-35, and were blown out in the second round, 4-1, by that same Sonics team.

So, that was Kareem's career in the decade of the 70's. ONE ring, TWO Finals, and mostly early round playoff eliminations, as well as two team's not making the playoffs.

More to come...

This is the post of someone who doesn't know basketball.

[Kblaze8855]

Wilt would be a better scorer than Kareem if he decided to cut out the holding back due to hating the perception of him as just being a bully. Wilt being as good, athletic, and strong as he was...him shooting so many fadeaways is almost unacceptable regardless of the results. He would tell you himself that he didnt always take the easiest shots he could because he wanted to show he was skilled(Hes admitted as much many times....interview with Russell and costas being the best example on youtube).

Guy took too many garbage shots relative to his talent.

In so many ways he played less than his best its hard to look the other way.

Im sure that will result in someone(well..we know who it will be) pointing out a bunch of numbers showing him playing well...which isnt in dispute.

But I cant ignore his refusal to get the best shots so he could look skilled to idiots.

Lot of insecurity issues with him.

[jlauber]

Continuing...

Let's once again recap Kareem's career in the 70's. In the weakest decade in NBA history, and with 48-34, 49-33, 44-38, and 52-30 team's winning titles (and 40-42 and 42-40 team's making the Finals)...Kareem won ONE ring (and once again, with arguably the easiest road to a title in NBA history), and went to ONE other Finals. He had a 56-26 team blown out in one ECF's; he had a 63-19 team ripped apart in '72 (escaping into the WCF's after shooting .405 in the first round, and then shooting .457 in the WCF's...including a "choking" .414 over the last four game of that series); a 60-22 team shredded by a 47-35 team in the first round (and in a series win which Kareem shot .428); losing a game seven in the '74 Finals, and on his home floor, when he was outplayed by 6-9 Dave Cowens and the underdog Celtics); missing 16 games due to a broken wrist in '75, and then only leading that team to a 35-31 record when he played (and they subsequently missed the playoffs); having his worst season of the 70's, on a team with an average roster that desperately needed him to step up; watching his 76-77 team, with the best record in the league, being SWEPT by the 49-33 Blazers; and finally, playing with the two most stacked rosters in the league in '78 and '79, and being early round cannon-fodder.

When did Kareem win the BULK of his six rings? Of course it was no coincidence that it came during the MAGIC-era. MAGIC IMMEDIATELY led LA to a 60-22 record. En route, Magic easily led the Lakers past their tormentors from the previous two seasons, the Sonics, in a 4-1 romp. Then, while Kareem played brilliantly in the first five games of the '80 Finals, he missed game six with an ankle sprain. Here again, I have read posters ripping Wilt for his poor play in game six of the '68 ECF's...and yet, they NEVER acknowledge that Wilt played the last FIVE games of that series with THREE different leg and foot injuries, including a tear in his quad muscle. Where is the critcism of Kareem, who SAT OUT a critical game six of the Finals. Fortunately for Kareem, MAGIC stepped up with a HUGE game... 42 points, on 14-23 shooting (and 14-14 from the line), and with a game high 15 rebounds...en route to a title-clinching game six win on the ROAD.

In the 80-81 season, Magic was injured early, and missed much of the last half of the season. He was rusty and nowhere near 100%...and did Kareem step up his game to overcome Magic's injuries...as Magic did the previous season? No, he was battered by a Moses Malone, who took a 40-42 team to a shocking upset of the Lakers. BTW, Kareem shot .462 in that post-season, which would be the third time in his career in which he failed to shoot even the league average (and he would make it a 4th in '88 too.)

Magic came back with a near Triple-Double season in BOTH the regular season, AND the post-season, in 81-82. He was CLEARLY their best player, and he led LA to a dominating title. And in the process, he won his second FMVP in his first three seasons. Oh, and BTW, he finished ahead of Kareem in the MVP balloting, too. And he would finish ahead of Kareem in the MVP balloting in the last EIGHT seasons of the 80's.

Magic did not play well in the '83 Finals, and LA was missing Worthy, too. But, once again. Moses just abused Kareem, crushing him on the glass, and the Sixers romped over the Lakers.

Magic was blamed for the Finals loss in '84, in a series in which the Lakers should have SWEPT Boston (even Bird admitted as much.) BUT, all Magic did in that series, was average 18.1 ppg, LEAD LA in rebounding at 7.7 rpg, dish out 13.6 apg, and shoot an astonishing .560 from the field. How about Kareem. He shot .481 in that Finals. Where was the criticism of Kareem?

Kareem did have a great Finals in '85. And he deserved the FMVP...BUT, it was MAGIC who LED that team in the entire post-season. Magic engineered a Laker offense that averaged 126 ppg in the playoffs.

I have mentioned it many times before, but a 38 year old Kareem just SHELLED Hakeem in the '86 regular season. In five regular season games, Kareem poured in 33 ppg on, get this... .634 shooting against Hakeem. Included in those five games, were TWO of 40+, one of them a 46 point game, on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.

BUT, in the '86 WCF's, Hakeem suddenly outplayed Kareem (to his credit, the old man still did average 27 ppg in that series.) However, it begs the question...why could Kareem so thoroughly dominate Hakeem in the regular season...and then collapse in the critical playoffs.

By the '87 post-season, Kareem was not even LA's second best player. Magic was CLEARLY the best player in the league, and now Worthy was his "second banana." And Magic was just sensational in the Finals, averaging 26 ppg, a team leading 8 rpg, handing out 13.0 apg, and shooting .541 from the floor. And behind Magic's play, the Lakers rolled to a title. I have long maintained that had Kareem retired before that season, that LA would still have probably won the title. Both AC Green and Mychael Thompson played exceptionally in that post-season, and both could easily have absorbed Kareem's minutes.

And by the '88 post-season, Kareem was now the FIFTH best player on the Lakers. In fact, they won the title DESPITE Kareem's AWFUL play. 13 ppg, 4 rpg, and a miserable .413 FG%.

Magic was injured in game two of the Finals in '89 (and Scott was already out for that series), and with Magic down, the Lakers were swept. Kareem, at age 41, was now worthless.

Kareem retired after that season...and MAGIC led the Lakers to a 63-19 record, which was their second best record of the decade of the 80's. So much for missing Kareem. Then, in the very next season, Magic took an injury-riddled Laker team to the Finals, where MJ and the Bulls romped, 4-1.

Magic "retired" after that season...and LA IMMEDIATELY fell to a 43-39 record. And the very next year after that, they were below .500, at 39-43.

Now, you tell me who had the most impact on the Showtime Lakers of the 80's?