Defense vs. Offense

[97 bulls]

Bill Russell is probably the greatest defender ever. And like every player, it matters who you surround him with.

Give me a present example of two players...or at least an example within the modern era. An offensive player vs a defensive player in which you think the defensive guy is more valuable.

This doesn't work if you can only name the single greatest defender of all time who happened to be surrounded by the most stacked rosters ever.

Would you take Ben Wallace over Dirk? Stuff like that.

I honestly can't think of a defensive player that is only one dimensional that I would take over dirk. Most of the guys I would take over dirk, are pretty good offensively too. Just probably not as good as he is offensively.

And I feel ben wallace is overrated. So no. I would take him over dirk either.

[DMAVS41]

I honestly can't think of a defensive player that is only one dimensional that I would take over dirk. Most of the guys I would take over dirk, are pretty good offensively too. Just probably not as good as he is offensively.

And I feel ben wallace is overrated. So no. I would take him over dirk either.

That is kind of the point. Payton was one of the best guard defenders ever...and he was a very good offensive player overall...but he's just not in Dirk's league overall as a player.

Howard is the best defensive force in the game right now. And he's a solid offensive player as well. Even with everything included, its absolutely debatable as to who the better player is right now. If you removed Howard's offense and made him mostly a defender, Dirk would easily be the better player.

[G-train]

Bill Russell's offence was as good as his defence.
But y'all teenagers dont know that. He ran the offence from the high post.

[97 bulls]

perhaps casual/racist fans may have considered dirk a 'failure' even though he made the WCF and Finals and gets you 50 wins a season...my point is Chandler was known as a good defender but was interchangeable with any number of defensive minded big men and was traded several times. Now he plays alongside Dirk and becomes the 2nd best player on a title team and enters ESPN's list at #38...

It's significantly harder to be a great offensive player simply because teams/coaches/scouts/players gameplan you so hard and will pick up on any tendency quickly--it's like a Le Chatalier's principle in sports. Plus individual defense is a bit more difficult than team defense to pull off in the NBA.

First of all, come off the "racist" inuendo. That's taking it way to far.

I agree chandler has always been a great defender. But the difference is that he's a champion.

And its not harder to be a great offensive player than defender. And to be honest, there's very few players (especially non bigmen) that can literrally efect a game defensively. Off the top, I can only think of jordan and pippen.

[97 bulls]

That is kind of the point. Payton was one of the best guard defenders ever...and he was a very good offensive player overall...but he's just not in Dirk's league overall as a player.

Howard is the best defensive force in the game right now. And he's a solid offensive player as well. Even with everything included, its absolutely debatable as to who the better player is right now. If you removed Howard's offense and made him mostly a defender, Dirk would easily be the better player.

But payton wasn't much of a help defender. He was a great man defender. And let's be honest. Dirk isn't that bad of a defender and is a solid rebounder considering he's a perimeter player.

And the only thing that makes dirk rank hiigher than payton is that championship.

[DMAVS41]

But payton wasn't much of a help defender. He was a great man defender. And let's be honest. Dirk isn't that bad of a defender and is a solid rebounder considering he's a perimeter player.

And the only thing that makes dirk rank hiigher than payton is that championship.

Dirk is definitely a good rebounder and a decent defender. I was just using him because you brought up the mavs. We can use another player if you like.

Totally disagree about Dirk vs Payton though. Has nothing to do with the title. Dirk was just a better player. And it defies your logic because Payton is easily a far superior defender.

What Dirk provides a team is just worth more than what Payton did. Simple as that.

[knicksman]

Why? What has he done? How many super talent offensive juggernaut teams has dantoni had and lost? With homecourt advantage no less.

Dantoni is a modern day don nelson. How many championships does nellly have as a coach?

What has thibs done too. they achieve the same but dantoni made it consistently. While thibs is the reason why tmac and yao ended their careers. Its easier to incorporate defensive schemes on an offensive team than to incorporate offense on a defensive team. I doubt the bulls will still improve on offense but I think those suns team could improve on defense if they have a capable center just like the mavs.

[knicksman]

And its not harder to be a great offensive player than defender. And to be honest, there's very few players (especially non bigmen) that can literrally efect a game defensively. Off the top, I can only think of jordan and pippen.

its harder to be an offensive player than defensive player thats why you can get ben wallace undrafted and iguodala in the late first round. When you play this game, defense is the first thing you learn and offense is last.

[brisbaneman]

First of all, come off the "racist" inuendo. That's taking it way to far.

I agree chandler has always been a great defender. But the difference is that he's a champion.

And its not harder to be a great offensive player than defender. And to be honest, there's very few players (especially non bigmen) that can literrally efect a game defensively. Off the top, I can only think of jordan and pippen.

I'm sorry but I do not care what anyone, says but it is a fact that Dirk has been disrespected and cut down in the past solely due to his race. Not one player has as much misinformation and flat out lies brought out against him than does Dirk.

[97 bulls]

What has thibs done too. they achieve the same but dantoni made it consistently. While thibs is the reason why tmac and yao ended their careers. Its easier to incorporate defensive schemes on an offensive team than to incorporate offense on a defensive team. I doubt the bulls will still improve on offense but I think those suns team could improve on defense if they have a capable center just like the mavs.

Thibs is a rookie coach. And he has a young team. The jury is still out on him. Where as, dantoni has been coach for at least 5 years.

And how. Did thibs end mcgrady and mings career?

[97 bulls]

Dirk is definitely a good rebounder and a decent defender. I was just using him because you brought up the mavs. We can use another player if you like.

Totally disagree about Dirk vs Payton though. Has nothing to do with the title. Dirk was just a better player. And it defies your logic because Payton is easily a far superior defender.

What Dirk provides a team is just worth more than what Payton did. Simple as that.

I don't think nowitzki was ranked higher than payton even after that mvp. And just think if seattle would've won that series in 96 and payton wins the finals mvp.

[knicksman]

Thibs is a rookie coach. And he has a young team. The jury is still out on him. Where as, dantoni has been coach for at least 5 years.

And how. Did thibs end mcgrady and mings career?

because he was the assistant of van gundy with those defensive teams they had which caused the injuries.

Dantoni also never had a center and a defensive assistant while I dont know about thibs. Most defensive teams won in their first year and likely regress the next coming years so if he cant win in the first year then likely he cant win the following years.

[Nero Tulip]

What kind of player would you rather have and build around?

1) A player that can score in a lot of ways. Someone who you can rely on in the clutch and to always deliver. A great dribbler as well.

OR

2) A defensive player of the year candidate. Someone who hustles, grabs the boards and is always the lock down man. He can defend 4 positions and is the one you put on the other team's star.

One guy on defense can't have a huge impact by himself. Hustle players, and good defensive big guys are important but if I get the opportunity to get a Nowitzki or a prime Nash it is much more valuable.

[PistonsFan#21]

So Allen Iverson or Scottie Pippen?



Yeah I'll take the latter.

what about Ben Wallace vs Dirk Nowitzki?

[SCdac]

Give me both. The Mavs weren't doing shit without the defense of Chandler, Marion, Kidd, etc. And the Pistons of the mid-2000's weren't doing shit without the offense of Rip Hamilton, Billups, Sheed, etc. It takes both. In this era of bball, I think defense is the common denominator on all championship teams though. Every team seeks a shot blocking big man, and that's no coincidence. Clutch offense at the end of the game doesn't really matter if your not consistently keeping the other teams score below yours ( via team and individual defense). for instance I would not take a 30 PPG Amare (think 05 Suns) over a 20 PPG Dwight Howard, because in reality solid defense matters and Amare showed that only in glimpses.