ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #10 - John Stockton vs. Jason Kidd

[magnax1]

Kinda the midpoint between Rondo and Chris Paul...when Paul is refusing t oscore and pissing you off.

Hes "Let my teammates get theirs' chris paul mixed with Rondo...but with a jumper.

really is hard to compare him to anyone.

Yeah. Chris Paul this year is probably the best comparison. He didn't force things down the defenses throats like Paul does sometimes though. He stays back until he finds a reason to attack like Rondo does.

[Fatal9]

Well he averaged 14-15 when it was judged much more harshly, its not unrealistic at all.

They were judged more harshly, really...that's the excuse you come up with? Especially at a time where all the major PGs were putting up wild assist numbers. Looking back and watching all these old Magic/Stockton games where they had 20 assists and not being able to find anymore than 15 (I'll add Bird in this too because there's been a lot of games where I'm not sure how they are crediting him with a certain number of assists/rebounds, not that it makes him any less of a rebounder or passer).

If anything stats are tracked with more scrutiny now. Walt Frazier had only 9 assists in his famous 19 assist game 7 (this is counting all the "maybe" assists too) of the 1970 finals. Think anyone is getting away with that today? Shaq got away with being credited with 15 blocks in a game he only had 8 (he was playing in his hometown), that's second most all-time and he got half the number of blocks he actually had. That type of stuff doesn't happen today. And yet people act like statkeepers were out for blood against players before the year 2000.

I'll accept the 60s credited the assist with much more scrutiny, but making a point about how things people get on about today (a player getting an assist or two too many because a youtube video found it) happened to an extent in past years that's not even possible today. LeBron is accidentally credited with an assist and you have his haters uploading the video within hours to show how inflated his stats are. Chris Paul is credited with an assist or two where David West took a couple of extra dribbles and you have a youtube video with hundreds of thousands of hits.

There is literally nothing to suggest the assist was credited differently in the 80s/90s compared to today, other than your willingness to give one era every benefit of the doubt over the other. PGs have it much harder and there's no way anyone matches those wild/inflated assist numbers from the 80s because they are not playing in a run and gun league anymore. Literally, it's like...other team scores...you push the ball up...strike your midrange shooting SF for a open transition jumper on the wing and collect the assist.

But anyways, you keep believing Stockton would put up 18 assists a game today (along with all your other comical opinions).

[G-train]

They were judged more harshly, really...that's the excuse you come up with? Especially at a time where all the major PGs were putting up wild assist numbers. Looking back and watching all these old Magic/Stockton games where they had 20 assists and not being able to find anymore than 15 (I'll add Bird in this too because there's been a lot of games where I'm not sure how they are crediting him with a certain number of assists/rebounds, not that it makes him any less of a rebounder or passer).

If anything stats are tracked with more scrutiny now. Walt Frazier had only 9 assists in his famous 19 assist game 7 (this is counting all the "maybe" assists too) of the 1970 finals. Think anyone is getting away with that today? Shaq got away with being credited with 15 blocks in a game he only had 8 (he was playing in his hometown), that's second most all-time and he got half the number of blocks he actually had. That type of stuff doesn't happen today. And yet people act like statkeepers were out for blood against players before the year 2000.

I'll accept the 60s credited the assist with much more scrutiny, but making a point about how things people get on about today (a player getting an assist or two too many because a youtube video found it) happened to an extent in past years that's not even possible today. LeBron is accidentally credited with an assist and you have his haters uploading the video within hours to show how inflated his stats are. Chris Paul is credited with an assist or two where David West took a couple of extra dribbles and you have a youtube video with hundreds of thousands of hits.

There is literally nothing to suggest the assist was credited differently in the 80s/90s compared to today, other than your willingness to give one era every benefit of the doubt over the other. PGs have it much harder and there's no way anyone matches those wild/inflated assist numbers from the 80s because they are not playing in a run and gun league anymore. Literally, it's like...other team scores...you push the ball up...strike your midrange shooting SF for a open transition jumper on the wing and collect the assist.

But anyways, you keep believing Stockton would put up 18 assists a game today (along with all your other comical opinions).

Just garbage. I watched Stockton average 15 apg, and I watch the NBA now and with my own eyes witnessed how assists are calculated. Thats all.
Wasn't Rondo averaging 15-16 a game for a couple of months this season?

You just spewed garbage for no reason. Wipe your mouth and go home.

[Odinn]

Unlike Nash, Stockton's D comparable to Kidd's D. Also Stockton's accomplishments too much for Kidd's accomplishments. Peak wise really close.

John Stockton.

[wally_world]

Nash > Stockton > Kidd

smh

[RobertdeMeijer]

I loved Stockton growing up because I was quite a nerd. I loved his efficiency.

And he never stopped it seems.
I was playing Zelda 1 when I first heard about him,
Zelda 2 when I realized how good he was,
Zelda 3 A Link to the Past when I just couldn't understand how he (now the best point guard) and Malone (perhaps the best power forward) couldn't do do better,
Zelda 4 (Link's Awakaning) when he didn't win the assist title and it was like the sun didn't rise in the morning, Zelda 5 Ocarina of Time when he finally made it to the finals,
Zelda 6 Majora's Mask when he and Malone were still going, but the rest of the Jazz were aging too much (doh!),
Zelda 7&8 (Oracle of Ages/Seasons) when I lost hope he would never get a title but was sure that he was only behind Magic as the best point guard ever, and finally,
Zelda 9 (The Wind Waker) when he retired, and I really couldn't care anymore about searching for heart containers.

Very subjective stuff, but John Stockton was so good for such a long time, I have a hard time comparing him with Jason Kidd... even when I realize that I've been following them about just as long and that in theory, Jason Kidd was just as good and had just as a succesful carreer.

I'm giving the "you never let go of the stuff you loved in your formative years"-effect some time before I vote. But right now, the comparison seems absurd.

[iamgine]

Poor kid

John Stockton

[Toizumi]

Nash is one of the worst defenders of the 00's, unquestionably in my mind. I can barely watch him.

Jason Kidd at least tried.

Jason Kidd at least tried? Jason Kidd ranked among the best perimeter defenders for most of his career.

Nash was never a great defender, poor even, but to say that he didn't try to play defense? Nash is not a talented defender, but he works hard on D. It always surprises me how bad he is, considering he really puts effort into it (it shows).



I think I'll be one of the few to vote for Jason Kidd here. Most posters will disagree with me, but that's fine. Rankings are subjective and this is my view on this comparison.
How can this not be close though.. Both players have had long careers, are 10 time all stars, have multiple All NBA/All Defensive selections, were conference champions and yeah a past his prime Kidd won a championship this year, but that doesnt really swing the comparison in his favor.

I pick Kidd because I think he had a higher peak than Stockton. I remember flipping through an old NBA magazine a while back and it was the 01 offseason (when Kidd was traded for Marbury) and had pre season rankings.
The Nets were projected last in their division. Bad projections, but still, nobody expected the Nets to be as good as they were, let alone win their conference. Kidd was the clear leader of the 4 K's (Kidd, Kittles, Keith, Kenyon, lol read that somewhere in SLAM once). Not the most impressive squad on paper. The EC wasn't that strong back then, but having the best record in your conference is always impressive.
Kidd finished second in MVP voting that season, carried his team to the finals..
Who knows, maybe Stockton coul'dve done the same. We'll never know. As it stands now, I think that Kidd did more with less. In no way do I want to discredit Stockton, but he was part of one of the greatest duo's to ever play this game. Kidd, sadly, never ran with a player as good as Malone (well, Nowitzki, but that's an old Kidd). What would've that been like? Again we'll never know. That's what makes this ranking so subjective. Both players played for different teams and both were great at what they did and played their roles superbly.
In terms of their games and impact on games, I rank them even. Great leaders, solid offensive games (not the best scorers, but great playmakers), great defenders. Both players were hard nosed.

Tough one, but I vote for Jason Kidd.

[Yung D-Will]

Honestly It didn't matter who won between Nash and Kidd because they were extremly close.

However Stockton is just better than both of them.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Kidd would have won at least 2 rings if he was playing on that Utah Jazz team with prime Malone. Just sayin'.

[Yung D-Will]

Kidd would have won at least 2 rings if he was playing on that Utah Jazz team with prime Malone. Just sayin'.

That Jordan guy was pretty good....

Just saying

[LEFT4DEAD]

That Jordan guy was pretty good....

Just saying

What about '94 and '95 when they got emberassed by Hakeem?

[Soothing Layup]

What about '94 and '95 when they got emberassed by Hakeem?

That hakeem guy was pretty good..

[L.Kizzle]

For people who voted for Kidd in the last round & Stockton in this round can you tell me why? Nash if you look deeper was better than Stockton, Stockton has the longevity, but Nash was clearly the better player. I don't understand these inconsistencies. Just my opinion.

Cause Johnny did it much longer.

[SunsCaptain]

Cause Johnny did it much longer.

Steve Nash is playing til hes 45.



Even if he needs to lay down half the game on the court =p