ISH All-time Top 25 Guards Project: #13 - Steve Nash vs. Gary Payton

[Kblaze8855]

There's just no case for Payton.

There is a case for Payton it just depends on the team. nash wouldnt make the 90s sonics any better and Payton might...might...give the suns a better chance in some of the playoff series they lost. Hes not letting Parker run as wild as he did at times(I say that knowing that Parker first gained fame for running wild on Payton years ago in the playoffs).But I suspect they win less games in the regular season so the matchups are thrown off....

Skill by skill its pretty close since nash is better at virtually everything with the ball in his hands and Payton is better at virtually everything without it. Some might say Payton was a better scorer...eh. Nashs ppg doesnt show his real talent for scoring. I cant see Payton doing what Nash did vs the Mavs in 05. At all. Nash was on some legit Isiah Thomas shit...like...the best of Isiah Thomas. If Magic Johnson had that series...we would call it one of Magics best series.

Nash had agreater potential to score than he showed. Which is probably why he was/is so hard to guard...hes an outstanding scorer who chooses not to do it most of the time so when he does you dont know how to handle it. He walks the line between scoring and playmaking better than most ive ever seen.

He isnt exactly...better...than Payton. Depends on which side of the ball you value more. And the question comes down to if you value the on the floor impact more than Paytons edge in total game(his offense being better than Nashs defense by miles).

Me? I tend to go defense first.

But ive never seen Payton look as dominant as Nash did at his best. Even when Payton would have like 25/8 and hold the other guard to 4-15 shooting he didnt come off as dominant. Part of the edge people give to offense. But Nash at times was just a wizard. 48 points on 70+ percent shooting? Then 34/13/12? Then 39/12/9 to close it out?

Ewww...

I might throw up in my moutha little just remembering it.

But...he isnt flat out better than Payton. Not as a total player.

Just depends on if you care or not compared to bottom line effectiveness and ability to help the teams you were on.

Because of that I guess I can see why one might vote Nash. Plus undeserved or not..he is a 2 time MVP. Regardless of what results here...history wont remember Payton as better.

[Clippersfan86]

Nash, and not close.

The dude almost had TWO 50/50/90 seasons (freaking unheard of). This is arguably the BEST shooter in NBA history. He's led HISTORICALLY GREAT offensive teams, some of the best of all time.

Did you see my Payton statline in his prime? 24 ppg, 9 apg, 6.5 rpg and 2 spg. Nash hasn't even grazed any of those categories besides assists. Sure Nash offensively is the most efficient PG of all time. You honestly are going to tell me with a straight face you'd pick Nash over prime Glove???

Another difference is Payton was in the finals and would absolutely have a 2nd ring if it wasn't against the dynasty Bulls. The Sonics have 2 of the best NBA seasons ever as well with 63 and 64 win seasons led by Gary. Nash hasn't been to the finals and even the year they got close Amare was averaging something absurd in the WCF like 34 ppg, 13 rpg and 3 bpg. Yes I'm aware of Suns winning 62 games BTW... but winning 64 games in the 90's where defense was a lot better?

Nash is the most efficient offensive PG ever... but Payton is arguably the greatest ball/man defender in NBA history. I like your posting Droid but to say Nash, not even close isn't fair considering accomplishments wise how much better Payton was. A PG winning DPOY and making 9 or w/e Defensive 1st teams to tie Michael Jordan??????

Edit: I forgot to mention Payton won a ring as 6th man in Miami which again contributes to his side of the argument.

[Clippersfan86]

Here is how Nash and Payton fared against the best PG they faced in each of their five prime playoff runs.

Steve Nash

2005 vs. Tony Parker (Spurs win in five)

Nash - 23.2 ppg 10.6 apg 52 fg%
Parker - 20.4 ppg 4.2 apg 46 fg%

2006 vs. Sam Cassell (Suns win in seven)

Nash - 18.3 ppg 10.8 apg 48 fg%
Cassell - 20.4 ppg 6.0 apg 46 fg%

2007 vs. Tony Parker (Spurs win in six)

Nash - 21.3 ppg 12.7 apg 44 fg%
Parker - 20.8 ppg 5.7 apg 45 fg%

2008 vs. Tony Parker (Spurs win in five)

Nash - 16.2 ppg 7.8 apg 46 fg%
Parker - 29.6 ppg 7.0 apg 51 fg%

2010 vs. Tony Parker (Suns win in four)

Nash - 22.3 ppg 7.8 apg 56 fg%
Parker - 19.5 ppg 5.0 apg 48 fg%

Overall vs Tony Parker

20 Games played (Spurs lead 12-8)

Nash - 20.7 ppg 10.0 apg 48 fg%
Parker - 22.6 ppg 5.5 apg 47 fg%

Overall Totals

27 games played (Suns 12-15)

Steve Nash - 20.0 ppg 10.2 apg 48 fg%
Opposing PG's - 22.0 ppg 5.7 apg 47 fg%



Gary Payton

1996 vs. John Stockton (Sonics win in seven)

Payton - 20.7 ppg 6.0 apg .504 fg%
Stockton - 9.9 ppg 7.6 apg .397 fg%

1997 vs. Kevin Johnson (Sonics win in five)

Payton - 25.4 ppg 9.0 apg 41 fg%
Johnson - 16.8 ppg 6.0 apg .295 fg%

1998 vs. Stephon Marbury (Sonics win in five)

Payton - 26.0 ppg 5.6 apg 50 fg%
Marbury - 13.8 ppg 7.6 apg .306 fg%

2000 vs. John Stockton (Jazz win in five)

Payton - 27.0 ppg 7.2 apg 44 fg%
Stockton - 13.0 ppg 12.2 apg 51 fg%

2002 vs. Tony Parker (rookie) (Spurs win in five)

Payton - 22.2 ppg 5.8 apg 42 fg%
Parker - 17.2 ppg 2.6 apg 50 fg%

Overall Totals

27 games played (Sonics 15-12)

Gary Payton - 24.5 ppg 6.7 apg 45 fg%
Opposing PG's - 13.8 ppg 7.1 apg 39 fg%

Exactly the kind of stats that prove overall impact. Droid if Nash is the most efficient offensive PG of all time... but allows other top PG's to cream him in playoff series.... what good does that do? Gary could shut you down AND bust your ass for 20+ and 8+ to go with a few rebounds and steals.

[catch24]

Trolling

Providing solid arguments for 1 side is now considered trolling. You don't want me posting in your topics, but if we add up the posts you have posted in my topics MORE than I have posted in yours, especially if we consider %s.

I don't really care what you think. I will present my arguments. They will be nearly infallible. And not everyone is dense as you and will actually ignore me, so I know they will at the very least be read.


I will attack...but later. Busy right now.

Problem is you post with Payton's b*llsack on your chin. No one wants you here, take the hint and make your own thread.

[DC Zephyrs]

Steve Nash

Obviously Nash can't hold a candle to Payton on defense, but his brilliance on the other end makes him more of an impact player. Defense isn't that important at the PG position anyways, and Nash's teams are usually so productive when he's on the floor that it doesn't matter if he can't defend anyone.

[Doranku]

My God, Payton MASSACRED PGs in the 90's.

[PowerGlove]

Nash, and not close.

The dude almost had TWO 50/50/90 seasons (freaking unheard of). This is arguably the BEST shooter in NBA history. He's led HISTORICALLY GREAT offensive teams, some of the best of all time.

[Clippersfan86]

Steve Nash

Obviously Nash can't hold a candle to Payton on defense, but his brilliance on the other end makes him more of an impact player. Defense isn't that important at the PG position anyways, and Nash's teams are usually so productive when he's on the floor that it doesn't matter if he can't defend anyone.

Did you see G.O.A.T's stat list above? Payton was not only burning up PG's offensively but holding them way below their averages. Nash was brilliant offensively but also allows other PG's to torch them. He's obviously a liability. Gary Payton locked up Michael Jeffrey Jordan. That's all I have to say. If Payton wasn't nursing a torn calf muscle and Karl let Payton D up Jordan from the beginning of the series... Sonics win that series.

[Clippersfan86]

I also love Gary's fire. The dude never backed down from anyone and was one of the fiercest competitors of all time. If I had to pick a PG to lead my team into a battle it's Gary. Not saying Nash is a wuss because the guy has a ton of heart and leadership. Just saying Gary was a mean son of a bit** on the court and that has it's advantages.

He's right there was Sam Cassell when it comes to amazing mind games they play with opposing guards and great trash talkers. I just watched clips of him with the TNT crew and was laughing so hard I almost cried. He's great at clowning on people and so honest. It's hilarious. Gotta love my man GP.

[Droid101]

Exactly the kind of stats that prove overall impact. Droid if Nash is the most efficient offensive PG of all time... but allows other top PG's to cream him in playoff series.... what good does that do? Gary could shut you down AND bust your ass for 20+ and 8+ to go with a few rebounds and steals.

He didn't allow other PG's to "cream" him. One year Parker played better. Every other year Nash was better.

Also, comparing Stockton's stats isn't really legit... Stockton was a creator not a scorer. Paker was a scorer not a creator. Yet Nash was mostly outscoring Parker (and thoroughly out-creating him).

Notice nobody posted True Shooting percentages. Nash creams Payton at True Shooting.


But whatever, I guess your 1 time DPOY is more valuable than 2 time MVP?

[Droid101]

Seriously... Gary Payton was a great defender and all that, but Steve Nash led the five best offenses in NBA history. Not one best offense. Not one of the top ten best offenses. The fives best offenses.

You're going to ignore that because Gary Payton was a good defender?


Also, look at career playoff numbers.

GP: 14ppg, 3.7rpg, 5.3apg, on 44/32/70

Nashty: 17ppg, 3.5rpg, 8.9apg, on 47/41/90 (And that's including his first two seasons playing behind Jason Kidd, where he averaged 1.3/0.3/0.3 and 5/2.5/1.8)

And Nash is still going strong.

[Clippersfan86]

Seriously... Gary Payton was a great defender and all that, but Steve Nash led the five best offenses in NBA history. Not one best offense. Not one of the top ten best offenses. The fives best offenses.

You're going to ignore that because Gary Payton was a good defender?


Also, look at career playoff numbers.

GP: 14ppg, 3.7rpg, 5.3apg, on 44/32/70

Nashty: 17ppg, 3.5rpg, 8.9apg, on 47/41/90 (And that's including his first two seasons playing behind Jason Kidd, where he averaged 1.3/0.3/0.3 and 5/2.5/1.8)

And Nash is still going strong.

Do you remember that in those seasons the Suns also allowed astronomically high scoring numbers against them? If you score 120+ every game sure chances are high you'll win.... but if the other team scores 115 it proves you weren't efficient. 9 out of 10 basketball fans would pick a team that plays great defense and offense over a team that plays the best offensive basketball ever but one of the worst defensive ones ever as well.

It's all about balance man.

[Clippersfan86]

He didn't allow other PG's to "cream" him. One year Parker played better. Every other year Nash was better.

Also, comparing Stockton's stats isn't really legit... Stockton was a creator not a scorer. Paker was a scorer not a creator. Yet Nash was mostly outscoring Parker (and thoroughly out-creating him).

Notice nobody posted True Shooting percentages. Nash creams Payton at True Shooting.


But whatever, I guess your 1 time DPOY is more valuable than 2 time MVP?

Okay I used the wrong word when I said cream. What I meant to say was they matched him. If you're putting up 21 and 10 but allowing 20 and 8 or w/e.... what good does that do? It's a wash.

[Droid101]

Do you remember that in those seasons the Suns also allowed astronomically high scoring numbers against them? If you score 120+ every game sure chances are high you'll win.... but if the other team scores 115 it proves you weren't efficient. 9 out of 10 basketball fans would pick a team that plays great defense and offense over a team that plays the best offensive basketball ever but one of the worst defensive ones ever as well.

It's all about balance man.

They played at a fast pace, that's why the other team scored more.

How's this:

Steve Nash's team records:

01-02 Mavs: 57-25, .695
02-03 Mavs: 60-22, .732
03-04 Mavs: 52-30, .634
04-05 Suns: 62-20, .756
05-06 Suns: 54-28, .659
06-07 Suns: 61-21, .744
07-08 Suns: 55-27, .671
08-09 Suns: 46-36, .561
09-10 Suns: 54-28, .659

Who cares how they won? They freaking won.

[Clippersfan86]

They played at a fast pace, that's why the other team scored more.

How's this:

Steve Nash's team records:

01-02 Mavs: 57-25, .695
02-03 Mavs: 60-22, .732
03-04 Mavs: 52-30, .634
04-05 Suns: 62-20, .756
05-06 Suns: 54-28, .659
06-07 Suns: 61-21, .744
07-08 Suns: 55-27, .671
08-09 Suns: 46-36, .561
09-10 Suns: 54-28, .659

Who cares how they won? They freaking won.

You obviously do because you keep mentioning the Nash leading the most efficient/best offenses of all time. If you're going to do that tell us about their defense as well??? The Sonics led by Payton were an amazing team on BOTH ends of the floor. They finished with the best record like 3 times, made the finals once.. and had a best year of 64 wins. Even if we talk team accomplishments lead by X player.. Payton beats Nash.